Baddý Sonja Breidert podcast cover
Episode: 9

Baddý Sonja Breidert - Content strategy

Posted on: 03 Dec 2020
Baddý Sonja Breidert podcast cover

Baddý Sonja Breidert is the CEO and co-founder of the European digital agency 1xINTERNET as well as a board member of the Drupal Association.

In this episode, we talk about content strategy and its role in digital strategy.  We start with why a content strategy is so crucial at a time when content reigns, then we cover the key prerequisites for devising a content strategy, its value for businesses and its changing nature in an omnichannel, post-Covid digital reality. Baddý illustrates her points with some great practical examples and introduces tools that they frequently leverage at 1xINTERNET, such as content templates.


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“So, we need to understand why are we creating digital properties like websites and for whom are we doing that and why are these personas coming to our website and what are they going to be doing there. And with that we actually understand what type of content we need to create.” 

Welcome to the Agile Digital Transformation podcast, where we explore different aspects of digital transformation and digital experience with your host Tim Butara, content and community manager at Agiledrop.

Tim Butara: Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in. I'm joined today by Baddý Sonja Breidert, co-founder and CEO of 1xINTERNET, a European digital agency. She is also a board member of the Drupal Association. In today's episode Baddý and I will be discussing content strategy and its role in digital strategy and digital transformation. Welcome Baddý. It's really great to have you with us today. Is there anything you would like to add to the introduction?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: No, I think you had it really well. Thank you for inviting me.

Tim Butara: So let's talk content strategy which has become a very important aspect of business lately and my first question to you is; why is that? How come that we're talking about content strategy now as kind of this really crucial key of the digital business?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: So, I think we can start with that we have so much content around us everywhere. We have multiple devices, we have content coming to us at such a speed that we can't even like see everything that we want to look at and we get too much that we don't want to see. So, therefore it's important to actually start looking at the content strategy for your company and be able to have like a structure around that and I think that very many in it back in the days we had like these static websites and the static websites just had like content on there and you could access it and look at it, but currently, like, today, people want more content more information and therefore like it's being put out at such a speed that just needs to be handled correctly.

Tim Butara: Yeah, content is king after all and the nature of content is changing so you have to keep up with that.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Correct.

Tim Butara: And what are the advantages for a business of having a really well-devised content strategy? Why should a business go for it?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: So I think-- so we always talk about this to our clients that this is the first thing that we just need to do. So, we need to understand why are we creating digital properties like websites and for whom are we doing that and why are these personas coming to our website and what are they going to be doing there and with that we actually understand what type of content we need to create.

So I would just say like that the main thing is like you create like relevant content for the users that are coming on your site or on your web property. And that takes a lot of effort. I often say that the worst thing that happens is that you say I need a new website and you go to a designer and say, like, can you design something cool for me? You know, that's the wrong start because you first have to find out why and for whom you're doing it.

Tim Butara: So, if I understand it correctly it's like you can't really outline a content strategy without first clearly defining like your mission, your vision, that's what actually enables you to be able to craft a content strategy and start executing on it?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Exactly. So, you start with looking at the business goals of the web property or for example let's make an example we are building a website for an airline you know and you first would say like, okay what's actually the goal of that website? Probably it is to sell seats in an airplane that goes from A to B and that's just a simple simplification and of course there's more things and it can also be like not about the commercial part. It can also just be providing information like at least difficult times now like COVID-19 you know provide others with information. So regardless of what it is we need to define that. So we define the business goal or the goal of the site or the goal of what we are going to be creating. And then we, actually the next step we go into is actually to look at the personas so who are we talking to, for whom are we actually building this to decide like are we going to present different type of content to its persona or is it maybe enough that we have the same content for everyone.

And this is crucial. And maybe taking the example of the airline a bit further, you know, we could have a trip going to let's say Barcelona. I’m now in Germany and I want to go to Barcelona and that's a very different thing for me to go to Barcelona if I’m, for example, a family person and I want to bring my family or if I just want to go there with my best friend to hang out at the beach.

So, depending on like where I’m coming from, who I am, why I’m doing it, I probably need a very different content provided to me. Being like you know that I would like to see like the cool hotel if I go there with my girlfriend, then we go to the beach and we hang out and I want to see maybe some bars and what you can do in the evenings, while maybe when I go with my kids I maybe want to check out like is there a zoo or anything like this.

So just going through that exercise and it doesn't have to be complicated to start with but going through that exercise of learning who is actually coming on your website and creating content for that it's extremely important and everyone should do that and everyone can actually do that.

Tim Butara: Yeah that's a very great point and you actually mentioned another very key insight here and it's maybe a bit counter-intuitive but we kind of box these personas, you know we classify them as, we classify each person under one persona, but now with this example you made it obvious that basically the same person can have different personas at different stages, in different interactions, on different channels maybe. So yeah that's a very key insight here.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah and what also actually happens is that that's around the context of you as a persona and that's actually what we are talking about in this case; the context. Am I going there with my kids or am I going there with my best friend to hang out on the weekend? And the context can like-- there can be something like a general context. For example generally I’m really interested in digital strategy. I'm interested in everything related to web, digitalization, open source. That’s my general interest but at the same time I’m also like today interested in something special and today for example I may be really interested in like the trip to Barcelona and I’m only thinking about that. 

So, every single person you know changes also constantly because maybe when I buy my trip to Barcelona today, maybe then tomorrow, I will not be interested in that anymore and I don't even want to see that content because I’ve already bought it. So this goes a little bit into personalization and all of that, but like but still it's very relevant to just sit down, think about it, do these exercises and there are so many great templates out there, so…

Tim Butara: Okay this actually leads perfectly into my next question and that is, how do you approach creating a good content strategy for your business? What are the key elements and like the key things to keep in mind here?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah so if we start with the personas which actually leads and also into like much further analysis and deeper analysis of like the user journey being an example. So normally it is done in a workshop style that can also be online but we can also do that like by just asking questions, asking the ‘why’. You know, I don't know if you read that book about like asking you know the importance of asking ‘why’.

So I think like asking the client often and going through that with every stakeholder that is involved. Not just the one department but also the sales department and the marketing department and the help desk and the management. Regardless of who it is, like, ask those people why it is important, make sure-- try to get these meetings or these people on the table and just be able to have those conversation and then there is just a lot of whiteboard drawings, yellow notes. Being obviously today just completely online and mapping this together in order to just at least simplify it then in the end to something that we can work with because like if we… taking you back to the airline, you know, this is an endless example that we can take you know because maybe the airline also flies down to Cornell in Spain and it also flies up to Iceland and you know, so many different scenarios you can't like maybe tackle everything but maybe you can just start by focusing on two or three personas then at least you are one step further than the next one.

Tim Butara: I’m glad you revisited the airline example because I think it has been, is relevant and will be relevant again during our conversation at a later stage. But yeah, I wanted to say that this certainly sounds like if you want to have a successful content strategy you have to kind of-- you have to de-silo. You can't have your teams siloed. It has to be something that's an organizational goal, it has to be something that all the teams that are involved in it are actually involved in it and right from the very beginning.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah, 100%. And one of my actually other favorite example is of course government. And government has a challenge, government and universities has a challenge of like having very many different personas and you know and having different like context every time. You know, being like for example me and maybe looking for a school for my kids but at the same time I’m looking at my parents are maybe you know becoming older and I’m thinking about like how can they get the support that they need or whatever it is.

So, I think like the larger you are of course as a company or as an organization the more important it is even to just make sure that you map this correctly up and provide the information and don't let the user search, you know, bring-- give it to the user as early on as possible.

Tim Butara: Yeah that's like the number one thing in user experience, right? If you want to provide a good experience you have to provide the user with what they want to search for, what they want to find, not like make them run around in circles to get to the thing.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah exactly and actually, so if you have already defined your personas and if you have already defined the user journey of these personas then of course like the next step is a little bit about like creating your content. So how do you… so what you then need to start doing is that you need to start like putting up like, how do I actually map my content, so the user actually then gets the information in a correct way. So we like in our-- when we go through these exercises to like, you know, give us like three important things that you want to bring out on the page that you are creating and if you have already the persona in your head, you have already the user journey in your head, you know put this down to; what are the three most important things that you want to come across and what are the important things and what are the less important things and what are the supporting things.

So, going again into like templates, tooling. You know this… you know we need to create like some kind of templates for the user so they can actually fill it out, they can think about it because they need to be successful also to create their content for their content strategy.

Tim Butara: So, have you seen this in practice already or have you already implemented it for a project at 1xINTERNET, this content templating?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yes. So this we are doing very regularly or almost with all our clients and we do this also with our own website, our own like, when we create content we have like content briefing documents where we then try to fill it out. Like that goes from you know what am I trying to you know achieve on that page, for whom is it, but there's also like there goes also like you know what about SEO? Am I making sure that like it's fun for what I’m writing it for, that I don't overdo that, what are the keywords that I’m actually want to place in there, how do I want to have the structure of the thing?

So, the most recent example that we are working on at the moment is for a government, so for a large city and there this is extremely important because we have there a page that maybe consist of 15,000 pages and I would say each page is actually-- has important information. You know it's depending on who you are that comes on this governmental page. You know it's important. So how do you then like make sure that the person feels comfortable when he comes on that page?

Tim Butara: Yeah and making sure-- I mean ensuring that for every single audience persona and as you mentioned previously with government organizations, with government agencies it's a much wider audience pool, it's a much wider pool of available personas.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah and like and now we're maybe going a little bit further but like let's just explore that as well. So now we are actually starting to think about like how do I enable my content editors? So if we say that we have started the content strategy and now we know like what our content strategy is and what our goal is, you know how we want to build up the content, you know how we want to have the emotional part of the content maybe with like animation, pictures, videos or whatever it is, and then like going into like how am I going to enable the editor actually to be able to do this in a successful way and how am I going to communicate it to that editor? Because then we also go into the UX of the site and that needs to fit to it as well, so we start to have a lot of stakeholders from being content strategists, UX designers, content editors, end users. All of them start to play a relevant role in this.

Tim Butara: Yeah.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: So simple.

Tim Butara: Yeah and it has to be-- it has to work for everybody, it has to work at every level, not just for one single stakeholder group.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah, of course. And that's the challenge and that is not simple. That's not nothing you know, I don't know if you know one of the hardest, difficult things always in web is often the start page; what do I put on the start page. Because all of the stakeholders they are not… you know of course there-- they want to, you know they want their content to be there on the front page, on the top, and at some point you need to make decisions. Of course like if you can somewhat personalize that and make that based on from where the user is coming that's of course even better, because if the user has already identified itself in the process then it would be of course nice to then just like show that user the relevant content that we at least like think it is relevant but like not always that's possible.

So-- but it's an interesting thing and I really enjoy working with these larger organizations and government to just figure this out and play and see what works best.

Tim Butara: You enjoy a challenge then, huh?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah and, you know, hey, in the end like we also then need to measure this all and see if like if our theory about what we thought in the beginning after doing all these workshops if that's incorrect. So we close the wheel in our company. We close it by saying now we measure and we take actions if that is not working the way that we actually thought it would be working so then we start the process again. So it is an iter… like it's a process that there's a circle where you start with the content strategy, then you start building the UX and the design, you start implementing the website and you in the meantime of course create all the content and then you like measure if that is, that what we actually said in the beginning is correct, because if we don't measure that we of course just assume it and that's probably not the best way to do.

Tim Butara: If you don't measure it then you don't know if your content strategy is effective and if you don't know if it's effective that's basically the same as it not being effective.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Exactly. And we always like to ask the user so we often displace this question in the end of each side and saying like, was this helpful? And we get a lot of feedback a lot of the sites now referring to Icelandic governmental sites that we are working on, we get a lot of feedback there. So, we hear from people like yes it was great or we say like, no I was actually, I got stuck so I didn't know I was expecting that I would get this but then I got that and now I don't know where to go and I had to start over again.

And as soon as you get this feedback from the users, like in their own words, it's even better.

Tim Butara: Yeah that's probably invaluable because I mean like companies spend so much money every year on gathering you know feedback from users and not just anonymous data but like actual actionable feedback and if you can get that for free with minimal effort and with basically zero financial investment and-- go for it, definitely go for it.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah but it's of course a lot of work for somebody to review all that and put that into some kind of a data that makes sense, you know, and but it definitely is a good feedback that we can get by that.

Tim Butara: That's true. And it also kind of helps to strengthen the relationship between the user - the visitor - and the brand because if they actually take took the time and you know actually went ahead and gave you feedback like it's not something passive, it's something that you have to actively do. It probably means that you know their experience was satisfactory enough that they kind of want to continue engaging with your brand because otherwise you know why would you want to help them optimize their content if you don't really care about them.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah exactly and also like if you don't provide this yourself on your own website they are just going to-- especially if it is a bad review that you're going to get, you will get that feedback somewhere else. There's a lot of medium out there for, you know, Twitter or anything like that that people will use in the end, so you better have it you know you better have a plan for how to react on that and how to respond on that.

I actually heard that, I was in an interesting call yesterday where I heard that some government here in Europe, I think it was Netherlands, they have a policy to answer always everything. So if they get like a mention in any medium like of those that they have are in control of they actually answer you. You know that's like a-- that's a pretty good feedback loop that you can ask a question and just get an answer.

Tim Butara: I think it's-- I mean, if you want to kind of build your online presence, if you want to build your online community, if you want to kind of build, build these connections with audiences I think that's a pretty great rule of thumb to have to kind of you know just as a rule just respond in some ways to all audience engagement.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah exactly. So going a bit back to the tooling and I actually wanted to like because there is something that I remembered about like one of the things that we talk about is the content pyramid and if you think about a pyramid that is just you know you need to structure your content in a way that you have like that what are the key points on the site, what are the secondary points of the site, you know.

Talking about this like again like you have to make it so simple for the user, for the editor to just like really understand like that when I am somewhere on the site and it needs to be consistent through your site. So it's not just like this page should be like that and that page should be like that, it's actually, they should all be structured in a similar way; they can look different depending on like what it is what we're talking about, but we need to be able to like give the user the key points, takeaways from this site in order for the user to choose if they want to engage with the site further or not.

And this is like maybe something that we have been thinking about like so this has been visualized for example in the case that I was talking about earlier in the Icelandic city. So then like you create like a visualization around your content strategy so the editors they can actually see this visually, so they can see like, ah okay, and we use methodology there like we have islands and then we have cities and then we have towns and villages depending on like how important the content is, you know is this a city content within an island or is it just a town content.

Town content is maybe just like a little bit secondary information, not so important. So like you need to create like this world around it so everyone understands it and then maybe in the end hopefully the user will also understand it by using the website.

Tim Butara: Yeah I’m really glad you brought this up, brought this up because I actually when you started thinking where you started talking about the templates and how editors need to have some kind of structure that they kind of follow;  the thought that first popped into my head is: you have to visualize it.

You have to create kind of visual representations for these templates in order to bring them closer to the people that will be working with them, because you know the digital is this; even though we've been working in the digital for years now, we-- I mean we could call ourselves digital experts I guess but it's still this abstract entity, right?

It's still this abstract world and we're much more familiar with the physical real world, we've been familiar with it for a longer time and if you can get an analogy and especially such an on-point one with something from the real life world that kind of facilitates your understanding of digital and enables you to perform better in it to produce better content, to produce better user experiences and yeah, that's key.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah and so therefore like and also going into the user journey which is also a part of it like you know you need to start thinking about like what are the feelings that the person is going through when the person is going on the side you know if the content is you know let's go into the airline again, okay; if the content is about going to Barcelona well, like, whoa my feeling is like I’m excited! I am like I want to get it done, I want to buy the trip! I’m just like I want to plan something, I want to send out a message to my best friend.

So like understand the feelings that I’m going through when I’m doing it and if you understand that you can actually create images that-- images and content that actually like fits. And I think that's crucial because you know it is not about just the main photo of Barcelona it's about like giving the person this, allowing the excitement to go even further of like, I’m going to go and I’m going to live, like this is what I’m going to buy. I think that's really exciting part of it is to you know you have to start working with photographers, you start working with video producers of understanding this as well. So there are very many people involved in this.

Tim Butara: Yeah it has so many layers so, such a detailed endeavor from what we've been, what we've been saying so far just like I mean nobody can blame you if your content strategy isn't 100% streamlined because it's, I mean you would have to just do that practically. It sounds like such a tough endeavor, such a difficult task to achieve if you-- I mean if you don't like dedicate yourself 100% to it.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: And I think that's good a point that you're actually mentioning there because I think that's underestimated often in companies that they hire, for example, in marketing,  marketing people that are good doing you know marketing and the content is supposed to be something that just actually happens and the marketing people are supposed to be often you know being able to do that, but you often need like content people to be able to do that and that's maybe the biggest struggle that we see often.

It’s like in the end who can execute this strategy that we are creating and it is beautiful to have a strategy laid down and everyone is excited and everyone is like ready to go and then there is nobody to take that forward. So we try to identify in the beginning like who's going to take that forward. Who is going to be the person or the department that is going to execute this and make sure that this becomes successful? And if the management of the company or the department who is doing it hasn't identified that we actually tried to find that out really early on in the process and make sure that they find the right people to execute it.

Tim Butara: Yeah that definitely sounds like a key kind of requirement for setting out a content strategy.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah.

Tim Butara: Okay, oh yeah, another thing that I wanted to talk about is - how have you seen the explosion of channels in the digital affect the creation of content strategy-- I mean, sorry, content creation and content strategy like have you… at 1xINTERNET have you made any significant changes yourself?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yes. So we are experiencing that now live in this podcast that this is exactly something that Agiledrop didn't have a couple of weeks ago, right? And before that like you've been known for your awesome blog and we read the blog all the time and thank you for the mentions that we have gotten in the blog, but like I really like following that blog and read the articles. And I think that you know now you're taking the step to do the podcast and so that's exactly… and the reason is that people like what podcasts.

Suddenly, I don't know, I don't know when it started, but probably like a year ago or something, suddenly everyone was listening to a podcast and suddenly there was this app on your phone that was always there and it has all of these podcasts and it is like I think at least a lot of my friends we just got thrown into this podcast world. And probably it is because we are listening less to radio, we are listening to Spotify and we are not listening to the radio shows anymore that we were maybe used to but going into your question; have I seen a change there? Yes, 100% and then our company you know we are now trying to do like internally videos to show people how for example onboarding happens.

You know when-- how should you use the tools that we are using in the company instead of like describing that in a very long document. We tried to then do like a small document with screenshots but also at the same time to do like a video recording and we haven't started podcasts yet but I’m personally really excited about that. I also have been listening to the podcast of Lullabot for a long time.

Tim Butara: Oh yeah, those are pretty good.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah, they've been doing it for a long time and I enjoy every single show that I listen to there and so I think that is constantly changing.

Tim Butara: Yeah.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: And it comes of course with the tools and the apps and everything that is being provided. There's also a lot of like shorter information so I think like these long articles are not that important anymore. Like these really long ones, it's more about like shorter information.

Tim Butara: Yeah infographics, stuff like that. It's kind of-- I think we're seeing this transition to, if people, people either want video or audio content that's easy to interact with that you don't have to put effort into consuming it, or if it's, if it's textual content it has to be accompanied by graphic elements, by visuals, so that's why infographics are becoming so prevalent I think.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: I totally agree and because it is also very different and that goes back into the persona and the emotions and the-- how that persona behaves is like I could like videos and podcasts while you could actually prefer to be able just to browse through the infographics and look at the text. In both cases we are interested in the same content but in a different, you know display, in that sense. So you know like of course like now we're just talking about a really advanced content production and strategy and but if you manage to do that as a company you are probably reaching a large audience.

Tim Butara: Yeah very good point there. And-- oh on a similar note, we kind of covered one of the major disruptions that's not as recent, but let's move to the most recent disruption of 2020 and I think everybody, both of us and all of our listeners already know what I’m referring to and that's COVID-19 of course. Have you adjusted your content strategy because of COVID and like have you spotted any key trends in the industry, how have you addressed these if you spotted them?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: So I would say that for us as a company, no we haven't changed our content strategy. But what I see for our clients is that we have a lot of clients that were doing a lot of things offline, they were creating a lot of brochures, you know they had maybe an internet but still like at the office they were doing a lot of things by displaying stuff on like a-- you know what's for dinner or what's for lunch. You know, they were doing that then maybe on a table or something like that which is now of course all that type of information is just digitalizing.

One good example is in the government of course like there's a lot of processes there that are very manual. You know you need to go and you need to print something out then you need to put your data in there and then give it to someone that takes it and stamps it and now of course like we are seeing this of course change into digital media and I think that's very healthy that that's happening. It's actually many companies I think just need to wake up and realize that you know that they need to be able to communicate and work with people that are not coming into their office.

So yes I think you know I would say that we see a big difference and that's also why currently for agencies and those who are working in the software industry of course there's a lot of work to be done and that's our job to help these clients to get this executed in the most effective way as possible and start maybe small and then becoming better every step in the way and not just having to like solve it all at once because that's not possible and especially now in the COVID-19 you have to act pretty quickly, right?

Tim Butara: Yeah you have to be agile.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah so in that sense you have to like you, you know and you can't solve it all, it's not like that four years ago maybe someone would have started a big project and that needs to be approved by everyone to digitalize some process but now like it just has to be done and let's get it done and then just iterate and do it better. And I use like good tools and agencies and work in open source and then everything is good.

Tim Butara: Yes, the key things; agencies, open source, yeah. And okay this time I’ll be the one that will return to your example of the airline company because that's what kind of what kind of interested me, like you know the state of air travel post-COVID is completely different from the end of 2019 or early 2020, like was there any, were there any specific considerations for this exact, for this specific client?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: In the-- yeah so like, so there was actually a really interesting case in Iceland because we have there an airline, both an international one and domestic one, and of course like that suddenly changed, the persona changed and in the domestic flights, for example, we saw before a lot of foreigners flying around between A and B within Iceland. But now of course like it's not there are no visitors in Iceland anymore because this at the moment the country is like almost closed except you have to go into you know do a test and all of that, but what we see of course now that suddenly the Icelandic people are using the service from flying to A to B. And what happens then is like the Icelandic government then also comes in and says like, hey those who are living abroad or like not abroad but like not in the capital city Reykjavik but those who are living somewhere else maybe we can give them discounts of like coming to Reykjavik because they cannot be going anywhere else.

And so like so there's stuff to like involve evolving like they're a new thing that now suddenly the government is supporting Icelanders to travel to in a domestic, you know, with the domestic airlines. Which is great and they're giving like support, they're giving like in that case it was 40% discount for everyone who's flying to the capital city and lives abroad, like lives not in the capital city. And this is like something that the government decides to do to make sure that the economy is like you know still working. So I-- you know, is that enough for the airlines for your exact question? You know I’m not sure but at least we can get that working at the moment but for the international airlines it's of course hard, right?

Tim Butara: Yeah.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: And it will be for a long time probably now, so... nobody knows what is going to happen tomorrow so we just all sit there and try to do our best and…

Tim Butara: Yeah that's actually exactly why I wanted to revisit this in the context of COVID because as soon as you mentioned that you're working on with an airline company I was like, whoa! That has to be completely different now post-COVID than it might have been last year or something. Yeah, I can imagine that there's no like definitive answer or like or clear-cut strategy it's just-- I just wanted to hear your experience here, yeah.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: So, you know I think it would be really interesting to actually... So agencies in our, like, software agencies in our business we actually see a lot what is happening in the industry. So we get a lot of-- like we have clients that are running you know museums, we have clients that are having ships to go from A to B and we have clients that are in government and you see actually what is going on and it's yeah clients that are you know selling food to restaurants.

So, I think like the government could probably ask digital agencies about lik,e how is the business going. But a lot has changed and of course like us being like a remote company as well, a lot has changed for us and I and I miss like going to conferences. I miss like meeting the team, I miss like meeting the Agiledrop team at an event and hang out and talk about something nice, but now we just hang out on Zoom or...

Tim Butara: Yeah. And don't worry I mean even if it takes a few years we'll get all those things back. We'll reunite at the conference again.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah but I really appreciate it. I need to actually, I want to say that-- so I got a present from Agiledrop and it was so nice, it was something that I was sent by post and that was so smart and I just thought it was like because we normally meet on a conference and hang out there and you know various conferences, for example, our company and your company and we're friends for a long time in the, in like the Drupal world. And then I got this post with like a notepad to write down, and a little card, and just like get you know, stay safe, or whatever it was-- I sat there. So, you know or it was for Christmas I don't remember when it was but like doing stuff like this just matters and I think you know more could just take that approach and you know because we are not meeting in person, right?

Tim Butara: Yeah thanks for the shout out and the praise. It's definitely, it means a lot that you not only spotted it but that you actually, it kind of it stuck with you, it left a positive impression on you. It's great.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah and like and I just-- yeah that's just great and I think like now for example I’ve been to a couple of conferences so afterwards I’ve been getting like T-shirts sent, you know, and so I was like attending a DrupalCamp, Colorado which I obviously did not attend in person but I attended it online and now I have a T-shirt that I was in DrupalCamp Colorado and I think it was really cool even though I was just sitting at home putting the kids to bed and then going to my conference.

Tim Butara: But that's the innovations, you know, that's what a crisis such as COVID kind of spurs us to do. It's like, okay, how do I provide as much of the same experience as with an in-person conference in a digital, in a virtual conference.

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Exactly. And that you need as a company to think as well. So as a company to you need to like rethink how you were doing things and see if you can maybe transform that into something digital and even like just engage with your customers just like you said by them just sending them something you probably have their data anyways in some kind of a form, so it doesn't cost much to send a thank you note or something like that and that will stay. Definitely. That should be part of your content strategy as well.

Tim Butara: Yeah definitely at least in, at least a post-Covid content strategy, right?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah.

Tim Butara: Yeah, okay. Thanks so much Baddý. Before we finish the call I just want to ask you, if people want to reach out or learn more about you where can they do that?

Baddý Sonja Breidert: Yeah so first of all I’m actually doing a workshop in DrupalCon Europe that will take place on the 8th of December to the 11th of December. So, it is a virtual conference at DrupalCon Europe and I am there doing a workshop, a hands-on workshop on this topic and that means that I will actually show and share the templates that I was talking about. So if people want to join that's, the conference has a ticket price but otherwise everything within the conference is then part of that price.

So, I would really encourage them, like, I would like to see more people coming there because then I will share all this stuff and we will not just talk about it we can also like look at it and people can actually take it with them home and… well, they’re then probably sitting at home.

So that would be like DrupalCon in December but otherwise Twitter, Baddý Sonja Breidert. My email address you hopefully will share that, 1xINTERNET. So just LinkedIn, anywhere feel free to ask any question about this topic or anything else. I'm really happy to be able to be here.

Tim Butara: Awesome, it was great to have you Baddý. Thanks for the great talk and for sharing the great insights with us. Well to our listeners, that's all for this episode, have a great day everyone and stay safe.

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