"Just make the decision because as soon as I make that even if it is the 50% that's wrong, like, I'm going to know that immediately so at least I know that the other one is 50% right and then again I can go back and course correct. So I think it's just like atrophy is the killer of all things. Like, as long as we continue moving, like that's how we don't die. And I think in pivots and disruptions periods, like that's the key."

Intro:
Welcome to the Agile Digital Transformation Podcast, where we explore different aspects of digital transformation and digital experience with your host, Tim Butara, content and community manager at Agiledrop. 

Tim Butara: Hello everyone, thanks for tuning in. I'm joined today by Cody Schneider, founder of the AI SEO content engine, DraftHorse AI. Today we'll be talking about how to navigate career pivots through disruption and volatility, and Cody will be sharing some of his personal experience with needing to make a sudden shift in his career. Welcome to the show, Cody. We're very happy to have you as our guest today. Want to add anything before we dive in? 

Cody Schneider: No, thanks for having me, Tim. That's my only thing to add. Super excited to be here.

Tim Butara: Yep. As I was just telling you before we started recording, I'm also excited about this conversation. I think it's very relatable, even for people who maybe work in technology, but aren't hands on with technology, especially, which we'll also discuss, especially considering everything that's been happening this year in the tech space. So yeah, excited to dive into it with you. Can you actually start by sharing some of your personal experiences where you had to suddenly make a career pivot and how that impacted you? 

Cody Schneider: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So I think the biggest career pivots that happened, so I started out in e-commerce and then ended up in B2B marketing because a lot of what I had learned in e-comm was transferable there. That was kind of a massive, I think, shock just to understand the differences from a client expectation standpoint. 

So, really, the biggest thing was just like over communication is your best friend. I think that's like the thing that people forget most often is like, how do I create as much transparency as possible? This is something we really try to do within our company as well, where it's like just constant documentation of what people are working on. 

It works way better when it's like smaller teams, but I think it also, when you can scale that up where it's like, okay, I'm just doing loom videos and posting them in public channels, right? So like a screen recordings, talking through the things that we just learned or the data that we just acquired or the learning that we just had, those can be a kind of incredibly effective. 

So that was kind of my first huge career change. The second one after that was going from B2B marketing agency world to really tech. I moved out to San Francisco and worked for a early stage startup out there. And again, just the biggest difference there was the level of autonomy and, like, they want you to make action. Like, you know, the worst thing you can do is not making action. 

And so that again was kind of one of those big kind of mindset shifts of like make the decision, even if it's the wrong one, at least it's a step in a direction. And then you can, you know, correct course based on like, once you know, like, oh, this is the wrong way that we need to be going. Right. So when we stay in the same place, that's when the worst, you know, the worst outcomes happen. So. 

Tim Butara: That sounds like both of your career changes or the lessons that you learned from these two major career pivots kind of fall in line a lot with the agile methodologies and the agile mindset, right? Of kind of over communication, it might not be an agile thing specifically, but it's like communicating clearly, transparently, efficiently, without wasting people's time, that makes sense, and also kind of just launch it, do something and learn from your mistakes instead of trying to think of every possible thing that could go wrong beforehand, then obviously we'll never account for everything. And even if you do, like, when are you going to be finished with that? So yeah.

Cody Schneider: 100%, 100%. I think, you know, we can spend so much time focusing on all of these tales that we think could happen. But in reality, like once it's out in public, how the user uses it and what we expected them to do are two entirely different things. And so the things that we were planning for, they actually aren't the ones that are the problems. Right. 

Like all the bugs that we get are, you know, we won't even know they exist until it's out in public. So it's just like, how do I speed up that feedback process to be as fast as possible? And then just create a user experience that's framed around that. So they understand like, hey, things are going to be like not perfect, but we're going to fix them really quickly.

And actually I think it creates a really great opportunity for you on the client management side, when you do that. Right. It's like, you're showing them like, okay, here's this problem that you just had. And we just solved that problem. If you do that consistently, I mean, you'll make a lifelong client in that, going through that motion.

Tim Butara: Yeah, that was a great add on. But can we actually take a little step back maybe from discussing different businesses and the business aspect? And I want to focus for a little bit on the most important individual traits and tactics for being able to effectively make these job pivots and pivot through volatility.

Cody Schneider: Yeah, I think the biggest thing is just like, come from it with like the mindset of friendliness. That sounds so dumb, but it's it's really just like assuming that the person that you're interacting with like isn't malicious. Like, that's not always the case, it depends on the setting, but I think when you can both mutually be like, okay, like, they're trying to improve and I'm trying to improve. And then just like that creates this line of receptiveness to that feedback. 

And then having defined North Star goals, that's like a huge thing I think in that career pivot of like, okay, I'm going from here to here, like, what are these agreed upon things that my manager and I have decided or what I measured against, like, how do I define those? 

And then what are the ways that I'm tracking that, whether that's dashboards or, you know, whatever that is, I think without having like something that you're working towards that your superior is agreeing on or whatever your career is, that's related to your career, it's very hard to, you know, just know where you stand, I guess is a good way to say it. So of the progress you're making in that transitional period within your career. So. 

Tim Butara: I think one thing that, one concept that also is very relevant here is the imposter syndrome. And I'm guessing that with these sudden career shifts and pivots, imposter syndrome can be even more likely, especially if everything is changing in the entirety of the business as well. And so I'm guessing that setting some kind of baseline KPIs or some kind of North Star goals greatly diminishes the risks of like long term or serious imposter syndrome. 

Cody Schneider: Definitely. Yeah. And I think the other thing with imposter syndrome is like at every level you should have imposter syndrome if you're growing, like if you don't have imposter syndrome right now, like, that's a strong call to action that you need to change your life to be, you know, be challenging yourself more because it's, you should, you know, unless you're content right with like where you are in your career currently.

For a lot of people, like, you can get stuck in that kind of rhythm, and then it's like, I know exactly what I'm doing, but if you're trying to continue to grow throughout your whole career, like, I think you should constantly be pushing that boundary and that envelope. And like, that imposter syndrome is a natural response to when you're pushing yourself to that next place.

Tim Butara: So you should always like try to be at least a little bit out of your comfort zone. 

Cody Schneider: Definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think it's all in healthy doses and everybody has different like levels of that discomfort that they are comfortable with. That's a kind of an oxymoron, but, I think that is, yeah, I think it's kind of true though, where it's like, we all need to assess, like, okay, what are the boundaries that I can push myself towards, like, towards that, whatever that goal is that I'm trying to get to. For everybody it's different. So, yeah.

Tim Butara: So I'm guessing that this would be one of the key challenges with like disruptions and pivoting during disruptions. What are the other ones that we really need to talk about today? 

Cody Schneider: Yeah, I think the largest challenge is knowing what like is signal and what's noise. So when, you know, I come at it from a founder's perspective, but when... the biggest thing that I'm facing on a day to day basis is, like, we get feedback from customers and clients and it's like, okay, well, what is actually the thing that, what is the signal and what is noise? Like, what is the thing that we should actually do based off of all of this data that we have? 

And I think that's like one of the hardest things in pivots and disruptions is because, like, you just don't have a transparent view of, like, what's actually going on and what's occurring. And so because of that, you're, you're making decisions off of, you know, 50% right data. Right. And so it's like, okay, well that's like, yeah, it's not perfect. 

And so I think that for a lot of people, and me included, like, the thing I have to challenge myself on is like, okay, just make the decision because as soon as I make that, even if it is the 50%, that's wrong, like, I'm going to know that immediately. So at least I know that the other one is 50% right. And then again, I can go back and course correct. 

So, I think it's just like atrophy is the killer of all things. Like, as long as we continue moving, like, that's how we don't die. And I think in pivots and disruptions periods, like that's the key is like, if you just stand still, you're more likely to, you know, fall down rather than like, if you keep moving around, like, you will at some point figure out, okay, this is the path forward, right? This is the right path for me to follow to make sure that I can adjust to this, this disruptive moment. So.

Tim Butara: Yeah, and this ties perfectly to one of the key things you highlighted in the beginning, right? The importance of just doing something, just make the decision, just do something instead of trying, instead of wasting time trying to think of every possible thing and then getting paralyzed or getting atrophied to, to use the more recent term you use instead of like actually doing stuff and making things happen.

Cody Schneider: Totally. Totally. I think that's a simple thing that like, it's like, make a decision and even if it's wrong, it's like, and again, this is just a mantra that I always kind of have running in the back of my head. The indecision is what kills, nothing else kills. So. 

Tim Butara: And if you're doing it right, I mean, if you're on the right path, then like these errors and learnings of what was wrong when you should have chosen right, are just stepping stones to get you to that perfect place. 

Cody Schneider: A hundred percent. Yeah. I would just try to talk about it as like a field of vision. So it's like, I have this field of vision and like, as long as I make a step in the direction towards like, we'll say, like, North, right? Like, I can step, go Northwest. I can go Northeast, but I'm still moving North, like in collective collection. Right. Okay. But with every step that I take that like field of vision gets more focused, like, okay, this is my actual goal. This is what I'm trying to do. But without taking those steps forward, I don't have any of that, like, you know, I don't have any of that refinement that happens. So. 

Tim Butara: That was such a great example. Yeah. And another thing that I really wanted to ask you is how can you balance the timing of making a career pivot versus trying to thrive in your existing lane? So I guess this is especially important when it comes to like hugely disruptive tech trends, such as AI that we're seeing this year.

Cody Schneider: Yeah. I think, with these types of trends... so, my blunt answer is, like, chase the money. So it's like, if you see... just personally, like, I saw this so often where it was like, friends of mine that were in positions at their current company and they got offered more opportunity at another and they like just didn't want to make the jump because that transition kind of scared them.

I think that that was like something that like... just do that thing, always move towards that whenever that opportunity arises. I think the pivoting piece really comes down to like focusing on like what that that goal is. And then also like looking at the environment, like, when the landscape is changing. 

Like, for example, we have this massive tech change that's occurring right now, like the base technology is shifting, which is AI being introduced to all this. And because of that, like there's this moment where it's like, you can do career jumps that you could not do two years ago because of that. Right. Like, nobody is an expert in this. And so by becoming an expert in this field or adopting it, it's like faster than other people, you have this opportunity.

It's like what happened with mobile, right? Where you had all of these developers, like, because nobody knew how to develop mobile really effectively. They came and they developed mobile and because of that basic technology change with mobile devices, right? Like we saw this as well, where nobody knew exactly what they were doing. And because of that, like all of these developers came in, they basically positioned themselves as being experts in mobile. And that same opportunity is happening now within the AI space. Like, you can position yourself because the playing field is even because everybody's starting at the same place.

So, I think looking for those moments in time when you can have those... like, those moments of disruption create a ton of opportunity for you within your career. Like, it's just figuring out, okay, this is that shift that's happening. We're seeing a global shift. How do I ride that wave and be a part of that change that's happening? So. 

Tim Butara: Those were again some excellent points and maybe to close off the conversation, to start wrapping it up, besides this great tip on kind of transforming volatility into a business advantage, what would be your other top tips for our listeners on how, you know, people and businesses can leverage volatility and transform it into an advantage instead of fighting against it?

Cody Schneider: Yeah, I mean, I'm seeing this happen right now in the agency space in particular. So like, there's all these agencies that are like, we're 100% human content, right? And they're like fighting this wave. And I just saw an SEO agency that had 200 employees go out of business, right? Like this happened three months ago. And it was because they didn't adopt these new technologies that are changing the industry, right? 

And in contrast, you have these other, like, there's this other SEO agency, it's called Boring Marketing. Their you know, their homepage is literally like AI SEO or AI powered SEO. Right. And so like what used to cost 30 grand, they're charging people, you know, 3000. Right. 

And just by positioning themselves in that way and having that transparency of like, okay, like, we are using this thing, but we're doing it in a way that's creating like the same outcomes for you as if you were doing this previously, like, I think people will get hung up on, like, if I'm a client, like, I don't care about the process. I care about the end product and the impact that it makes to me. Right. 

So I guess like in relating this to disruption, like if all of the, we would call it like the sausage making, like all the sausage making that happens, like, I don't care how that happens. And I don't want to see it. I just want the end result. Right. I just want the final product. 

And I think thinking about that and employing that in like these disruptive moments is really critical. Like, nobody cares about how it gets done. They just want to know that it got done. Right. And so, like, again, just focusing on that end product result.

Tim Butara: But it also ties back to the previous point, right, about positioning yourself as theexpert. Because if you haven't positioned yourself as the expert, then that price reduction might not seem as appealing if you're not like clearly an expert in what you do.

Cody Schneider: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. I think it's like, there's a moment now to, I mean, we're seeing this more and more with founders, they're doing podcasts and they have these newsletters and they're like automating their Twitters with AI, right? Like, basically, the founders can position their companies so effectively now more than they ever could before with the ability to produce media, right?

Like, you've recorded this podcast. You sit down for an hour. It turns into all these clips that go on social media. It turns into blog posts and it turns into LinkedIn posts. It turns into... right? And all this takes is maybe two hours of your time with all the tools that are available now. And so I think that like right now, there's more of an opportunity. 

Like, we have this base technology change. And all the tools that are being built on top of this based technology change AI are also enabling business owners and founders and employees to basically brand themselves in a way that they could never previously do. You needed a team of 10 people, but now it's like, okay, cool. I jump into Zoom. I record this. I throw it into one of these tools that like transforms it into written content. And okay, I just produced all of this content, like, more content than a Fortune 500 company will do in a quarter. Right? Like I can do that alone as an individual with like five hours of time. Like, that's crazy, that that shift has happened. 

Tim Butara: Yeah, that definitely, like, compared to previous tech, maybe to the previous example that you gave about a mobile being similarly disruptive. But from what I gather, this, because of what you just highlighted, the disruption of AI is even bigger, because of what it allows businesses to do, not just in how it changes, you know, users' and consumers' perceptions and habits and everything.

Cody Schneider: For sure. For sure. I mean, I think on the business owner's side, what's crazy is like just seeing the automation that's starting to happen. Like, my friend runs this company and like all he does is he goes and he looks at business processes and he's like, what can we automate and what can we offshore, and then, you know, delegate out to offshore teams and then have them augmented by AI as well.

But he was just telling me, I had a conversation with him like three weeks ago, and he went into a real estate agency. And they have a hundred person team and he looked at their whole like workflow and he basically automated 80% of it. So he goes to the CEO and he's like, okay, we just automated all of this paper pushing that was happening.

And they're like, you know, they just cut their costs like so dramatically, which allows their team to focus on the like really high touch, like human parts, which is like in real estate selling and buying, right? It's like those pieces, like, we can't automate that, but all of that middle, that, you know, in between can be augmented. And that's the opportunity that exists right now. Like, that's this moment in time that we're in that we can all seize if we decide. Right. So.

Tim Butara: Cody, that was a perfect note to finish on, and a great conversation through and through. Just before we wrap it up and jump off the call, if our listeners would like to connect with you or reach out to you or learn more about you, where would you send them to?

Cody Schneider: Yeah, yeah, you can go, I'm on Twitter and LinkedIn, that's probably where I'm most active. If you honestly just Google Cody Schneider, both of them should come up. And yeah, that's probably the easiest way. The two companies I'm working on are DraftHorseAI.com and then SwellAI.com. So Swell is focused on content repurposing and DraftHorse is focused on the AI content writing at scale.

Tim Butara: Okay, awesome. We'll make sure to add everything to the show notes. And Cody, thanks again for the great talk. 

Cody Schneider: Thanks for having me, Tim. Appreciate it. 

Tim Butara: And well to our listeners, that's all for this episode. Have a great day everyone and stay safe. 

Outro:
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