“You can't just build a website anymore. It's just-- it almost doesn't matter. You need software that allows you to build experiences and then share those experiences across any channel at any time that you are going to and encounter a user.” 

Intro: 
Welcome to the Agile Digital Transformation Podcast, where we explore different aspects of digital transformation and digital experience with your host, Tim Butara, content and community manager at Agiledrop. 

Tim Butara: Hello, everyone. Thanks for tuning in. I'm joined today by Michael Page, chief technology officer at R2integrated, an award-winning digital experience agency based in Baltimore, Maryland. He's also an Adobe Summit and Adobe Virtual Summit Speaker with over 25 years of experience in the digital space, which makes him the perfect guest for today's episode. We'll be discussing processes that are needed to facilitate digital transformation initiatives and guarantee that they're successful. Welcome, Michael. Thank you so much for joining me on the show today. 

Michael Paige: Hi, Tim. Thanks for having me. 

Tim Butara: Anything you want to add to the intro before we jump into the questions? 

Michael Paige: You know, probably just the fact they started out my career as a developer, right? So it's funny to see how far the industries come where it really doesn't require much development as much as it requires an understanding on how to piece together, in some cases, best in class technology into something that makes sense for your organization. I think that just makes it much more accessible for companies. And I think that's part of what's pushing this transformation is, it's no longer just a core group of IT nerds and some back office, but it's like it's on all levels of the C suite. And I think for me just to watch that industry transform is super exciting. 

Tim Butara: That's a great way to kick off the episode. Awesome. So with all this in mind, let's open things up - with what would you say is the most failsafe approach to digital information in the 21st century, so especially the latest years? 

Michael Paige: So I think for years it was always for me like platform extensibility. How do you create a future proof system? I think in the last two years it's been organizational extensibility. Like, how can your organization change or, you know, really add new capabilities and add new functional imperatives or shift how people work in roles or shift what their imperative would be into something that's new. And it's because there's been a new piece of technology that's created do-gooder access or a new piece of technology that has taken the time or effort to implement a data layer and made their own most immediate. So you pull back this whole deployment much earlier so you can be smarter. So it really is about how can your organization really be ready for change? 

And I think that is the part to me that is probably the most challenging, but also the most exciting. And it's really kind of pivoting that conversation. Organizations are excited about the repetitive change and how their job is going to be different rather than historically somewhat horrified by the prospect. So it's winning hearts and minds and understanding that organizational flexibility or extensibility is the key to success and transformation. The absolute key and the rest of it is product in a lot of ways. 

Tim Butara: Okay, let's maybe first talk about the technology aspects and we'll move on to the people or the more organizational aspects later. Why would you say that it's so important for companies to evolve alongside the technologies that they're using? And how should they approach this evolution? 

Michael Paige: Yeah. I think at this point, especially in COVID if you don't, you're losing money and you're losing money every day because you're not getting eyeballs digitally or you're not able to variate your message quickly or you're not able to sell product. I mean, most of our customers, I think, were shocked with how far behind they are. And even some of our larger enterprise customers are just now reacting to what they've learned because in some cases, they're in travel and hospitality. So obviously budgets kind of thinned out. But I think it's just taking stock of where they are now and understanding that they've got some significant gaps and those significant gaps are preventing them actually from realizing the benefit of some of the tech that they've invested in. 

Because it's holistic. It's not-- you can't just build a website anymore. It's just it almost doesn't matter. You need software that allows you to build experiences and then share those experiences across any channel at any time that you are going to and encounter a user. In order to do that, you need content creation, you need data, and then you need the pipes to make sure that the content can be matched to the individual that the data is telling you that wants to hear that message. 

So I think it's, whether you have complete laggards, maybe in manufacturing who are looking to maybe side step the supply chain a little bit and maybe go a little bit more direct to consumer, would help some manufacturers do that. Pentair would be one of them, where it's really being able to buy a Shurflo pump online instead of going to, you know, really a middleman. So it's really accelerating the revenue generation capability by going to direct to consumer. 

In order to do that, you really had to have all of the pieces in line. You need to have an expert generation machine. You need to have a data machine. You need to have the ability to transact. So you need a commerce engine. You need analytics to understand where the sticking points are there and then you need a way to kind of optimize that point. So that's a lot for an organization to kind of get their head around, especially sometimes in some of the organizations that are traditionally a little bit behind the time. So it's really helping them navigate. It's really, how do you maximize your revenue? 

And I think making sure that most companies understand that in order to-- you're transforming for a reason. You're transforming to grow your business. Sure, it's an expense. Absolutely. But you have to keep your eye on the fact that your business goal is to increase your revenue. And now whether that be selling a product or converting a user, whatever it would be, it could just be demand gen so that you're getting more customers, more patients or whatever it would be. It's just in the end, you're trying to drive increase in revenue. And then how do we keep our eye on that prize and then back into with that business goal? What are the KPS to do that? How do we attribute success? And then how do we bring in the tools, the technologies and the ways of working in order to achieve that goal? So I think the best approach is to make sure you never get your eyes off that price. Absolutely. 

Tim Butara: That's an excellent point about this need for more holistic digital experiences rather than just a brand website. So this comprises kind of-- this allows you to meet the customer at any touch point where they're interacting with your brand digitally, and it allows for much better customer experience. And also you're able to innovate better if you have your finger on the pulse of these things all the time. 

Michael Paige: Actually, it's so funny. It used to be something that was, I think, an ideal to really have those cross-channel experiences that were not disjointed. It's like, that's what we want to be. I already know that it's necessary, because if you have experiences that are disconnected and your customers moving through your funnel and they're like, quizzically, do they understand? Do you even know why I'm here? So if you go from an email and then you're pushing someone on web and your messaging has changed, that actually is going to hurt you. 

It's not, there's no forgiveness. The customer at this point is extremely fickle, and they expect us to know. I mean, we decry privacy, right? We all want to make sure that our data is safe. But at the same point, when we actually meet something or be given ads that are, either we've already made that purchase, so I can watch-- and granted, I’m in the industry. So I get a little bit more frustrated when I know that they’re-- I legit just bought this product and you're still smashing me at Insta with an ad. I mean, come on, how about campaign suppression? These are baseline things. 

But it's really making sure that-- it's more like, you should know me, like, I legit am in your CRM. You actually have a transaction from me, and yet you're still kind of spamming me with stuff I don't need. So I think organizations need to take this idea of being more obsessed and this is Gartner sort of evolution, but they need to be more obsessed because I think their customers are expecting them to really understand who they are, where they are in their purchase flow, and what's next? Because we're all busy, right? And nobody wants to see stuff that does not matter. And I think that's only going to grow. And it's probably growing every day. Absolutely. 

Tim Butara: And also it's like, I know that you have all of this data on me, and if you have it, then use it. Don't just keep it, use it. Use it for my benefit. And as you said, I just bought a product from you. Why advertise the exact same product to me? Advertise similar, related products to me. There's a much higher chance of me buying, you know, another piece of something, another musical instrument, for example, than buying the exact same one a week after I purchased it. 

Michael Paige: It’s crazy, as a matter of fact, that actually in some ways gives me a little pause with the organization. You can't fundamentally understand that I literally just bought this, like I just bought it. Now I give you, if it was 24 hours ago, I'll give you, there's some latency, maybe a day’s worth of latency. Right. But after that, I mean, it's been weeks on some of this stuff, especially now. I mean, all of my commerce is digital. So it's all getting tracked. I know it's all getting tracked. So just level up your organizational capability to understand that data is going to drive your messaging. So I want the message to be correct. And I want the data to be not so latent, not weeks or months. So you just need to build a machine where you're able to connect those digital transactions. I know it's in commerce. I know the data is where it should be. Right? 

Just make sure that gets into Adobe Target or somewhere. Right. So that you're not, there's some attributes saying, don't give him another ad. He’s already got it. And by the way, you'll save money. That's crazy, am I right? You're actually going to save money because you just paid to show me the same thing ten times in the last two weeks, which is also insane. So it's really like-- and then we get back to, it’s revenue, right? It is revenue generating. I get that. And I'm going to cut-- back off that a little bit. But at the same point, watch your spend rate. I mean, protect your revenue by just being smart on how you spend. 

And there are simple things that you can just do, just cap and suppress your media and just make sure that the messaging is on target. Those things are also, they go right to your bottom line. So I think, by and large, be smart, be smart about how you do things and be focused on data, because that really is the key. 

Tim Butara: Yeah. That's exactly what I was thinking. Like, even if you're not trying to be super customer centric, it's your own advertising budget that you're cutting into. If you're showing me useless and irrelevant ads or ads that are no longer relevant because I already acted on it. 

Michael Paige: Absolutely. You just don't-- go into your commerce engine, do an export on IDs, what price they have, send it to your media company and say, suppress these individuals, we don't need to do that. But it's a hot second worth of work. Right. But I think that's when we get in organizational extensibility, that's probably not somebody's job. Right. So there's probably an implementer in there or an agency, and there's a couple of agencies and nobody really, on the client I think in this case, is orchestrating how their teams work together because there's gaps. 

And there's an expectation that, you know, depending on where your organization, that you would navigate that, right? We do that for our customers. We navigate the fact that it's not just us there. Right. It's an inter-agency team, and we all need to work together, and we need to make sure that we're pushing the product. We may be building Web 3.0, and we're doing the analytics and the targeting and personalization. We have a ton of data. But there's another team doing Marketo, doesn't mean that we don't want to stitch that Marketo ID in every AM page, so that we've got that online to offline transfer. And that means that our organizations need to work together to push these products further. 

So I think a big gap in a lot of companies is they bring in these different players and they put them in their silos. Right. Purposefully, in some cases, they're trying to mitigate risk and don't want to put everything into a bucket. And there's a million terms for it. Right. But nobody's holistically looking at, how is all this going to work together? Because it's completely and utterly interconnected. Adobe wouldn't be selling a suite of products if it wasn't, in fact, 100% interconnected and Oracle’s in the game, and they're all in the game. They're all in the game of selling these Swiss army knives of marketing. Right. But in order to do it, you need to understand the functional imperative of each tool and then how each tool works together, because you can easily implement these and they can be disconnected out of the box. 

And I think that's probably the most enjoyable part of getting into an organization who's got all these tools and not realizing the value of it. And you realize that sometimes they don't have a checkbox for A4T, which is analytics and Adobe Target working together, simple things that we can just go in and make sure that are hooked up and then to really kind of fire on that always-on experience machine. As long as they can get the content in, right, we can show them quickly how you can start to honestly just use Category Infinity, just have analytics watch what people are doing on the site. And then when they come back to the site, we're offering up things that we know that they're interested in. Right. 

And that's a very simple way to really start to put the right messaging in front of your clients, which is kind of the media idea, but even simpler, and it's completely in your own ecosystem. So all you have to do is make sure that you've got those pieces put together. So I think when I talk about organizational extensibility, that needs to be a job in your organization. Even if they don't know how to do it, they should always be looking out for the fact that there are opportunities that are potentially left on the table because no one's orchestrating all the different vendors, implementers who are representing all the different products that you purchased. 

And that, to me, is probably one of my most favorite things to do in our organization is to stop and then really elevate that conversation around, how is all this going to work together? And that usually starts with a conversation around testing and personalization, really. Because that's where you can start to get an organization to really think about, well, what are my outcomes here? Like, what are we going to do with all the tools? Because sometimes they buy them because they know they need them. And at some point in that supply chain, in that procurement process, in that implementation, in that launch, that vision is somewhat a little muddled, right. 

We have to kind of bring it-- and it's not thrown-away work, but we have to bring it back and say, okay, how are these technologies going to work in concert to manage experiences across channels? And that really is the most enjoyable. That's really the organism. That's really where transformation is. It's that last 10% honestly, it really is. And it's probably not where most of the work is, but it's that, it's the frosting, right. It is. But that's the piece that really transforms. Other than that, you just got a lot of tools and a lot of late capability left on the table. And that happens more often than not. 

Tim Butara: I love it how you're transitioning into the next question, making a great introduction for it, because as you just alluded to, having the right technologies and having the right tools and putting everything together is just one part of the equation. And the other part of the equation are the people and the organizational aspects that are actually enabling and powering all this. So how does the people aspect factor into all of this? How do the people in organizational aspects or features transform alongside these technology changes that we established previously? 

Michael Paige: Yeah, it’s critical. I mean, that’s why I get back to organizational extensibility is key. I mean, you can have all of this, all of this tech that will grow and modify, and it's mostly cloud based, so it's pretty much getting updated every day without you even knowing it. You have new functionality. All of these things are happening, right. But the organization needs to embrace that. I mean, you really have to understand that the leader is like, it's really one person. The customer is really the focus for all of this. Right. So the whole organization needs to get behind the fact that it needs to be focused 100% on the customer. 

And that’s something that-- you need citizen data scientists. You need people who understand testing, you need people who, no matter what they do in your organization, if there is a piece of technology that can further their business, they need to understand what that technology is. They need to own it. And they need to know how they're going to impact it. And I'm not saying you have to be a programmer because these are not things that require any technical ability. You just need to know, here is a tool, like a hammer, like a screwdriver, like a ratchet. How am I going to use it to solve my problem? And if you as an organization don't adopt that mentality, then you're not going to use those tools. 

Or, even worse, a subset of your organization who doesn't understand the overall business impact, right, that can happen, is managing access, which is even worse, right. Because then it becomes, just like you're not connecting some of these tools, you're not connecting the right people in your organization to these tools because you bought them for them. And it may have happened at a C suite level, right, where they came in and they bought this amazing suite and they implemented it. But the thing that has to happen is the individuals on the ground who are really going to leverage these tools need to have a sense of ownership and an idea of what those tools do to make their day to day job better, different, in some cases, radically changed. Right. 

And I think that's the part where organizational change management is often overlooked or training is the first thing cut in an implementation budget. Right. But even worse, it's sometimes just messaging why the technology has been purchased instead of, well, we're replacing it all. It's never a reason, well, this software was old or whatever it would be. Right. Those aren't actual reasons. The reason is that we want a demand generation experience on all of our digital properties and Eloqua or Marketo or whatever it is is the core of this because it's going to manage those moments, right? It's going to learn from what's happening. It's going to variate the message, it can talk to-- it's really about taking not the what, but what can it do? 

And I think that's where we have to elevate the conversation. I think as a consultant, that's kind of our job because it's a complex story to tell. So I think if we're beholden to deliver that message, but I think organizations need to understand that that's not a land and expand approach, or it's not a sales pitch, it's: this is how you pay this off, because the individuals in the organization need to understand how to use this. So it's not a line item in a budget. I’s not. It is critical for success because, you know, I've shown-- we actually have an assessment. We actually go into the organization. And whatever it happens to be for personalization, in this case, let’s use Adobe Target, where it's just not actually being utilized. Like it’s just sitting there. They've done a couple of tests, like an A/B test. Right. And they did that on like a fraction of the population. Other than that, nobody has any idea what to do with it. 

And we show them the power of changing a button, label or a color, or maybe moving something from up top to below or category Infinity. You know, I talked about that, or recently viewed, like, if you have a site that eventually is looking to generate revenue, you can use some of these very basic elements just to get content that is more interesting in front of a user. Because we've all been on a site. We give it like 10 seconds, if we don't see what we want, we're bombed. But it'd be very easy to use localized modeling to say, oh, God, you're coming in and based on ambient data or some sort of algorithm to determine that you might look like me, that you might like this. 

Those simple things can massively impact, clickthrough, massively impact add to cart, and they're very, very simple. But you need that mentality in your organization to realize that these tools are there for you to drive revenue. And then you have to ask yourself, well, how do I drive revenue? And then that starts the explanation of, really the exploration of, like, well, do I change the messaging? Do I change the color? Like, what can we do to test and learn to see what our users are doing? 

And that's really the first path or the first step in personalization. Oftentimes we think personalization is this massive, data-driven AI over-- it's all of this complexity, right, where it really isn't it. It really, actually, isn't. It's like, hey, here's four outcomes. You know, we think that one of these or two of these might be better for this segment. Right. And it could be as simple as that. Or we're not sure if any of this is going to work, but we can see a winner after 30 days. And maybe we can then enact that winner to be the new every experience. And maybe we see a lift in sales by 2%. Now, depending on the size of the company, 2% could be a lot. It could be. 

So I think that's the mentality that companies have to get into. It's really, how is this going to impact my business? And I think if we can get the organization to extend how they think about these tools or how they think about their jobs, I think that's the middle-- that's the missing piece that I think a real strong partner can help drive in your organization. Super passionate about it because it's often-- even as an implementer, right, if we can't shift attendant attitudes or create that test and learn culture, I know that they're not going to be super happy with what we did in six months. Right. So we need to be able to push that and to start small. Like, just start small, do something because it just snowballs like everything, right. 

Tim Butara: You can’t start without starting essentially. 

Michael Paige: You can’t, right. And don't make it complicated. Personalization is so scary for-- I'm talking to a small regional credit union. Right. Well, they're not that small, but in their-- so the entire world is short-staffed, them included. It's just shocking, like the amount of attrition organizations have. It's really about they're so afraid of potentially having an uptick in sales or revenue, that they won't even be able to process, which is nuts. Right. So they're afraid of being crushed by demand. Let that sink in for a second. 

Yeah. It's crazy. Right. So we can show them. And I say, okay, listen, let's start here. Alright. And I actually ended up talking to the head of digital, and I said, we'll start here and then let's just do, like the smallest segment, like let's test maybe a 10th of the population or 1%, like whatever they feel good about. And let's just see within that small group what can happen. Right. And then from that, we can measure the impact. So if they feel like, demand goes up, say, 6%, we can extrapolate, what does that look like? And then maybe we run something and they step up a little bit to kind of push.

So, literally I'm having this conversation, right. Because it's really about getting them to not be afraid of potentially being successful. And that is not the organization, every organization at this point is short-staffed. So a byproduct of that change is really fear that this is going to make, you know, my job harder. Because remember, we're dealing with people. Like, my kids, they ask me what I do for a living, right. And I don't actually explain it to them. I'm not even sure, but I actually just say in the end, I'm like, I'm in the relationship business. I'm in the people business, without question. I am trying to make people feel good about technology and trying to build relationships with them and that technology to accelerate their ability to be successful in life. Right. I want them to work less. 

I mean, there's a chance that this could be a four day workweek, things get easier if you could just adopt this way of working. Right. But in this Covid time, it's almost the inverse, right. Because people are stacked so thin. They're actually afraid to reach, they’re afraid to kind of push that. But it's really having those conversations and saying, listen, it's okay. Like, we're going to be okay here. We're just going to start testing in this small way because my goal is to get the organization to really see the value in the tech that they bought, right. And then the value of us as a partner. But it's also not there to break the organization. Right. 

So there becomes this balance. And adoption is funny. It could either be just fear, fear of not knowing. It could be fear of being overwhelmed. It could just be, it’s just another thing on my list. I got to figure out now I got to take this course, you know, and I've got to-- whatever it would be, right. But we're talking about people. We have to explain to them that we can approach this in a way that's super positive. So that also is like, it's important. It's just so important that we don't forget that people, they're the operators of this tech. We have to remember that people are complicated. 

Tim Butara: I love that point about how it's all, it's all people, even if it's companies, even in a B2B context. That's why I love the phrase H2H, even though it's almost kind of wanting to become a cliche. But I think it really accurately depicts something that we tend to forget when we're working in the tech and in the digital, that it’s just humans. You know, you're a human designing experiences for other humans, and you're supervised by humans. And it's just humans. It's not a company or a customer. The company is made up of humans, and the customer is a human, it’s just really basic. 

Michael Paige: It's all relationships. It's all just different ways of looking at relationships. Right. And I think we tend to, we do, we lose that, right. Somehow they don't print that in the brochure or CMS or their analytics package. Right. But it is. 

Tim Butara: And relationships are one of the most unique and kind of intrinsic parts of the whole human experience? Right. Without relationships, we wouldn't be able to do anything. Like, imagine. How would a single person 50,000 years ago ever be able to take on, like, a mammoth or a saber tooth tiger if they were alone? No chance. 

Michael Paige: I mean, you drop back to my parallel, how annoyed I am about getting served the same as one over here. I mean, partially it’s like, you should know me. I bought your stuff. You should know me. I'm not offended, but I'm kind of offended, you should know me, I'm frustrated by that. So I think it's-- because I have a relationship with you. You know, I do. I want to make sure that you see me. That's just human nature. That really is just human nature. 

Tim Butara: I love that you started talking about personalization and that we're focusing on it so much now because I just recently, just a few days before we are recording this, I published an article about finding the balance with personalization. And these are exactly the things that I wrote about, like, don't target users with ads for the exact same product that they've just purchased because probably they don't want to purchase the exact same product. Or if it's like something, like once-in-a lifetime purchase, maybe don't advertise a boat to them after they just bought a boat.

Michael Paige: Like, literally, right. Just stop it. Yeah. I know. It's just I think, people who own data in an organization and people who own the tools to have that messaging just really need to work on the fact that we need to get latency out of the problem. Right. The data needs to be moved directly. Have a CDP conversation. There's lots of ways you can get data closer to the tools that need to activate it to get that right message. But it needs to be on the forefront of how people are thinking just because waste, grift, annoyance, whatever you say. Just the messaging is so, so important, so important to customers. 

Tim Butara: And yeah, the competition is also greater because of covet and the digitalization. So obviously, COVID has had a huge impact, we already talked about, we already touched upon the impact it has had on how companies are approaching digital transformation. So how have you seen, what have you seen be the biggest impact of COVID on how companies are approaching this and how companies are accelerating? 

Michael Paige: So I think to me, it's transactional. I think a lot of companies have to think about how they are selling products. Absolutely. And I think you see that because the more I think, unfortunately, the more other companies or other organizations are between you and your customers, the greater chance for a breakdown. Just like the supply chain breaks down. Right. Just that the ability for a customer to source your product can also, it can't be interrupted. So you need to have control over that. 

So I think a lot of organizations are thinking about ,what does B2B really mean? And should it be B2C? And we get back into people, your B2B people are still customers. Right. So are there ways that I can respect my supplier? Right. Because I want, you know, suppliers are important. I want to respect my reseller, whether that be an organization that is reselling my product or series of products. Maybe it's an actual agent or an agent type broker who I have, 4000 field reps, right, that are calling customers on my behalf. Right. So they are also kind of my customers. And then I have people who are actually in the field. 

So I think, I feel like when you talk about having manufacturing in particular, I'm not talking about buying a $50 million printer, printing press. Right. I'm talking about, there are products like Pentair, which is a Shurflo water pump, that the RV community is hungry for. If you're building a class B RV, you want to put a water pump inside your, you want to be able to buy that. Now I can go online and buy that right now. I don't have to go buy it from someone else, right? I can go right to the source and get that pump. 

So that to me, is there's expedience there. And then, of course, you know, there's an increased revenue, right. Because I'm able to go direct to consumer. So I think that-- I think COVID has made that transaction the focus for a lot of companies. I think you'll start to see that in CPG companies, you know, who are-- especially the fact that people didn't go to the grocery store, people are buying more online, buying direct online. I think that's a game changer. I got ice cream delivered, and it was cold packed in dry ice, and I got ice cream delivered. It was special ice cream, right. But I got it delivered. So that's normal now, right? 
That's normal now. 

So I think organizations, companies need to figure out, how can I get product to the ultimate consumer? And how can I do that efficiently and profitably? And I think that to me, is the biggest challenge because I think we learned that there's a lot that happens in the middle that can gum up those works. Right. So I think that's going to be the most interesting conversation that we're having with our clients. 

Tim Butara: Yeah. And it's a trend that’s not going away anytime soon, right. People have gotten used to the comfort of ordering everything online, even after stores open back up and you're able to go maybe even mask free to a grocery store. You know, why do that? Why drive? Maybe in some cases, if you live out in the country and you don't live near a supermarket or a big, big store, why would you drive an hour and spend maybe copious amounts of money on gas and whatnot and time to get the same things that you can order online much more efficiently and much more hassle free. 

Michael Paige: I have six of these shirts, I bought one of them, I liked it, and I bought I five others in different colors, right. Because I don't necessarily want to go to the store, like, I don't. I'm buying couches, new place. All my couches are being bought online. You know? I mean, it's just I think that is, that's our new normal and regardless of variance or whatever is going to happen in Covid, I think we just kind of rethought, you know, what going to the store means, really. I'm not saying that-- there's still my 14 year old daughter’s going to the mall. That's not going to change, right. But that probably isn't. 

So I think that's the disruptive nature of Covid is, what is remote work and remote life really like? I think that's going to be actually, it's funny. I have, so I'm building a Class B RV. So I bought a brand new Ford Transit, I actually got one which was a shocker. And in that I can actually, because it's got its own built-in WiFi, I actually can broadcast my whereabouts to an Amazon delivery. So Amazon will deliver to my class B RV. Now, granted, I'm sure there are some exceptions, or there are probably places that's going to take a little bit longer, but to me, I was like, first of all, I love Amazon for those types of disruptive things that they do. Right. And I know it's a little bit of showboating. But that's super cool. They're also going to space, so, whatever. 

But I will use that because I can use it, and I almost have to use it as a technologist. But I think that right there shows like, I think how we're all thinking differently about how we work and how we live, and as a result, I think businesses have to react to that. Absolutely. So I'm super excited to order coffee from Amazon and have it delivered to me at some obscure place by the beach. I can in Charleston, Rhode Island, or wherever the heck I end up. Right. You know, I think that would be awesome. Would absolutely be awesome. And who knows? Maybe it's ice cream. Maybe that's what I have delivered, right. Because I know I'm going to be there from twelve to four tomorrow and I can go on Dreyer’s and I can order ice cream and it's going to be there. And I got five kids I'm treating. So I think that would be-- I would save a ton of money because ice cream at the beach camp is expensive. 

I think that is to me, that's where commerce and the culture around commerce is going to change. I’m, you know, listen, hardly a commerce visionary, but I certainly know it's going to be different, and we probably don't even understand how much is going to be different, but boy, what a fun ride that's going to be. So I think it's getting customers ready to sell stuff online. I think that's the part I'm most jazzed about. 

And I think that's where personalization comes from, really. That's really the impact, because that's the first step, right. The first step of having some transactional nature on your site is being able to make suggestions based on product. Now you may not be able to buy it there. It could be a one click link to Amazon or wherever it would be. Right. Wherever the transaction is actually going to happen, the digital property that you end up on has to be thinking about, well, how do I get someone to add to cart? Like, really? That's what it's all about right now. I don't know where that car is going to be added to. It may not matter, but that's the first step, right. 

And building web presences, and I'll go back to Pentair. That was a journey with Pentair. They wanted to, eventually wanted to go direct to consumer, so we did design and build solutions for them that allowed for that, right. That allowed for eventually that product suggestion became a product category, which became a product. So building that thought process in is important because it's hard to, if you go out a site in a traditional mindset, not thinking about its evolution, then you probably have designed yourself into a corner. Right. Which is a problem. Right. 

So your UX has to be thoughtful. And how is it going to accept, whether it be a shopping cart button or whether it be a product page? Like, how is it going to accept that? Because that is where we are going and then even stepping back into, like, I'll get a little nerdy, even a design pattern that says, okay, so the CMS is going to own the glass. But eventually I'm going to plug in behind the scenes like a Magento or hybrid, some engine that's going to drive commerce. But I don't want the user to see that, I don't want them to move to a different platform. Right. 

I want eventually my site on Tuesday to be non-transactional, and then on Wednesday be transactional, and all that happening in the background. And my digital presence owns that glass, right, across everything. So everything is happening through, you know, an AEM, for instance. Right. Everything's kind of coming through that. So I think that, which is the most flexible way to deploy it. So I think those are the kind of conversations that we're having with clients. And it's really about, like being super thoughtful about where we're going to be in a year or two years, because we've all learned that if you were not ready for that during COVID, you lost a ton of money, you lost a ton of money. You shut out a whole bunch of customers who wanted to buy stuff because you couldn't serve it up. I think that's a lesson hopefully that is not lost, you know, as we hopefully come out of this, knock on wood. Changes. 

Tim Butara: Michael, this was a great note to finish on. I think we covered a lot of really interesting points. I think our listeners will benefit from a lot of awesome and unique insights. This has been a really great conversation. I really enjoyed speaking with you today. 

Michael Paige: Oh, thank you. I enjoyed it as well. It was only off by like 22 minutes, right? 

Tim Butara: You know, we said in the beginning that if-- we’ll go where the conversation takes us, and I think I think it can be, people can get more value out of a conversation like this rather than if you were just super strictly following a set of questions and just have a Q&A session, basically. So, yeah. Just before we wrap things up, if our listeners wanted to reach out to you or learn more about you or R2integrated, where can they reach you? 

Michael Paige: I'm sure the PR team wrote that down for me, but I guess just me, mpaige, M-P-A-I-G-E at R2integrated.com or potentially just hit our website and you can connect with us there. 

Tim Butara: Okay. Awesome. I'll make sure to link all of those. Thanks again, Michael. And to our listeners. That's all for this episode. Have a great day, everyone and stay safe. 

Outro:
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