Radhika Dutt - Radical Product Thinking

So Radhika, welcome to our podcast. It's really great having you with us today, discussing this with you. Anything you'd like to add before we jump in?

Radhika Dutt: No, it's great to be here. And I'm excited to talk about the agile approach to digital transformation and how radical product thinking applies to all of it.

Tim Butara: Awesome. Awesome. I'm really excited. I think it's a great topic. As I was just saying, I really love how your name actually coincides with the name of your book. I'm not sure if this was intentional or if it just happened spontaneously. I'm sure there's a good story behind it, but let's start with you telling us a little bit more about what actually is radical product thinking and what are the core elements of radical product thinking?

Radhika Dutt: Yeah, I'll start with what radical product thinking is and I'll tell you the backstory because of course there always is a story of how the name came about. So the way radical product thinking came about was really based on a very long career in a sector And hard lessons in terms of how do you build successful products?

So by way of background I'm an engineer by training. I started my and my first startup when we were still in the dorm rooms at MIT. And this was back in 2000. And our first startup was called Lobby 7. And we were setting out to revolutionize wireless. That was our vision to revolutionize wireless.

And little did I know, but we'd caught our first product disease, what I now call product disease, which I, I have called hero syndrome, where, you know, we were all about going big and scaling and this whole thing of revolutionizing wireless in 2000, you know, this was supposed to be the age of things. And nothing happened, right?

The, the whole thing is that when you catch hero syndrome, you focus on going big on scale without really focusing on what's the problem you're trying to solve. That was the first product disease I ran into in my entrepreneurial journey. But, you know, after that, I worked in various other companies, some were startups, some were larger companies, some are multinationals.

And, you know, regardless of what industry I was working in at every single company, I found that we ended up running into different product diseases, which I talk about in the book. And I'll give you a few examples. One is pivotitis. Another is obsessive sales disorder. And one more example is, you know, strategic swelling.

And these are all diseases that often kill innovation and they make good products go bad. And so the way I arrived at radical product thinking was, you know, I realized that I was learning all these hard lessons and I was building intuition for how do you avoid these product diseases and build successful products.

And, you know, I'd been through many acquisitions. I have currently been through like five acquisitions in total across my entire career. But in 2017, you know, after building many successful products, I kind of realized that it feels like, you know. This hard lesson, this set of hard lessons that I've learned and the skill set that I've built, is it that we are all doomed to learning from failures or is there a mechanism, is there a framework that we can give people and say, okay, this is how you build successful products.

Can we give people a step by step process? So this was the, the theory, the hypothesis of the question, the burning question that I had in 2017. And I was sharing this with a couple of ex colleagues and, you know, they also were frustrated by the same set of product diseases that they were seeing. And so that's how radical product thinking came about.

It came about as a framework where we said, okay. Let's build this systematic process based on these hard lessons and help people build successful products. And we put it out as a free toolkit that people could download. And then all of a sudden, you know, it just grew organically. And it's since become a movement of people who are really being vision driven.

Tim Butara: That sounds really awesome. So how did it go from, you know, this playbook to an actual book that you actually wrote and published?

Radhika Dutt: Yeah, so the way that happened was, you know, we started getting people writing to us saying, you know, the toolkit has been super helpful. How do I know that I'm doing it right?

Do you have a voiceover or do you have a book that explains all of this? And so that's when I realized that there was a need for a book. And when I started working on the book and the book was published in 2021 and it's available wherever books are sold, you can go search for radical product thinking.

Tim Butara: Awesome. Awesome. We'll make sure to, to include some links in the show notes for easy access for listeners, but I'm really wondering, so now, you know, you have kind of the backstory, you have these harsh lessons that, and, and by the way, I found it really cool that, you know, one of the core concepts behind this is basically You know, instead of people having to commit mistakes and fail on their own, basically they're able to, to tap into the lessons that you have learned from your own failures and just start from there.

You know, you don't need to spend time failing because you've already done that for them. And, you know, they can, they can just build on top of that.

Radhika Dutt: Exactly. And what I've learned in terms of these key lessons about, you know, how do you build successful products is we have to really. Rethink a lot of conventional wisdom.

I'll give you some concrete examples of this, you know, one philosophy that really comes out of Silicon Valley is, you know, just fail fast, learn fast, move fast, break things, just iterate quickly. As long as you iterate quickly, you'll end up building successful products. And the way you do that is just throwing things in the market, so.

Seeing what sticks or like, you know, continuing to optimize. Right. And here's the problem with it. What I found is you literally, regardless of how much money you have, you have two to three pivots before you run out of money or momentum in a large company. You can have your entire treasure chest. That's backing you yet.

If you have to pivot more than two or three times, you lose momentum. People feel who are working on the project will feel like you have no clue what you're doing. I'm out. Yeah. Right. And so we have to be more vision driven. What I realized is that being iteration led, which is this philosophy that came out of Silicon Valley was really driven by the VC mindset.

The VC mindset is, you know, I'll invest in 10 startups. Everyone go out and try different things. One of you will work out and that's all I need as a VC to be successful. But if you think about this from an entrepreneur's perspective, that doesn't work out for you in terms of good statistics, right? Like what you really want is a vision driven approach.

And what I mean by a vision driven approach, and this is what radical product thinking is about and gives you the step by step approach, is you start with the clarity of vision. Meaning what's the change you want to bring about? And, you know, that sounds obvious, but I'll talk about that in a moment.

Because what I mean by a vision isn't the conventional wisdom of, you know, to be the leader in data storage, or, you know, to be a billion dollar business and add shareholder value by doing X, Y, Z, that's not a good vision. And we'll talk about what a good vision is in just a moment. You have a detailed vision that outlines exactly.

What problem you're going to solve, who has this problem? Why does it need to be solved? Because maybe it doesn't, maybe the world is just fine the way it is. And then you can answer, what's the world you envision when this problem is solved? Meaning when can you say mission accomplished? And then finally, this is finally where you talk about your product, where you say, how is your product going to bring this about?

So that is what I mean by a good vision, right? And that's what is radical about it because. Unlike conventional wisdom where you have one broad and aspirational vision, you have a very detailed vision that sounds more like an essay, not like a slogan. So a vision is just a starting point. In the radical product thinking way, there are five elements.

So vision is one. The next thing is strategy, which means translating your vision into a set of actionable steps. And we'll talk more about that in a, in just a little bit. But then you translate vision and strategy into your everyday priorities. This is where you balance, how do you meet your long term vision while also balancing your short term survival, because you can't reach a vision if you don't survive in the short term and survive your business needs, right?

And then you translate your vision, strategy, and priorities into execution and measurement. And this is where you take hypothesis driven approach. This is where you use agile. And this is where agile. Fits into the whole radical product thinking approach. And then finally, you can use all of these elements to also engineer your culture.

And by the way, all of digital transformation relates to these five elements, so we can talk about that next. If you like.

Tim Butara: Yeah, actually maybe first, can you give us, you know, you've just shared the practical steps and the kind of the core elements of doing radical product thinking, right. But what are some things to be mindful of, you know, when, when companies businesses are implementing this, what are some tips that, that, you know, my, they might find useful and help in their implementation?

Radhika Dutt: Yeah. So let's, first of all, talk about an example of what does implementation look like, right? Like, so let me give you a, this example of a startup that once came to me, the founder of the startup was Paul. So he came to me saying, you know, He's working on this startup where they were trying to build an app that spreads kindness by getting you to buy someone a coffee.

So, if you've heard of the suspended coffee movement that started in Naples in Italy about a hundred years ago, the idea is that You pay for two coffees, one that you consume and other that you're paying it forward for someone else who could use a random act of kindness. So Paul was inspired by this and he wanted to create an app, which would allow you to spread these random acts of coffee, as he called it.

And so when Paul came to me, he was sharing his stats and his numbers looked fantastic on paper, right? He had organic growth, a high daily number of average daily number of users, right, and he had lots of people spending lots of time on his app. I mean, the numbers look great. When you have organic growth, it's like you've reached Nirvana, right?

As a product person. But here's the one problem. It turned out that everyone was on the app looking for free coffees. No one was actually using the app to buy anyone a coffee or spread kindness. Right? So when Paul came to me, I said, okay, let's think about Writing out this vision in this radical product thinking way.

And then we're going to translate this into strategies, right? So we said, okay, in terms of the vision, we're going to look at the change that he wants to create, which is spreading kindness through coffee. And we're going to write in the radical product thinking format. So the way we use the radical vision statement, which is a fill in the blanks format, so that, you know, all of what I said about a vision, writing a detailed vision, it gives you the ability to focus not on the words, but on the content.

So here's the radical vision statement that we wrote for this startup. Today, when People who often go to coffee shops, when they want to spread kindness around them or say thank you to someone, they have to remember to pay it forward and overcome awkwardness if they're paying for a stranger. This is unacceptable because it results in these habits being rare and not a habit.

We envision a world where spreading kindness is easy and becomes a habit for people. We're bringing this about through an app that makes it easy to create random acts of kindness by buying someone a coffee to brighten their day. And so that was the detailed vision statement, right? So next comes a detailed strategy.

And in the radical product thinking way, you write a radical strategy where the mnemonic is R D C L. R stands for real pain points. So you have to ask the question, you know, what's the pain that makes someone come to your product? And in this case, the pain was that, you know, I am very happy to come in and claim a free coffee, but you know, I just have never bought someone a coffee like this before.

I wonder if it'll be awkward, so I hesitate to do that. So the D is design. And that's where you ask, what does the solution look like to be able to solve this pain? And so in this case, Our solution that we came up with is you have to get users to experience the joy of giving someone a coffee without having to pay for it.

And then once they've experienced it, then you get them to pay for it. So how do you do that? So that's the C for capabilities. So that's the C for capabilities asks, how do you. What's the engine underneath that enables your solution? So that's where what Paul did, he went and established partnerships with brands who wanted to sponsor these random acts of coffee.

And so the feature that it allowed us to build is that each person, so for example, you would get two coffees, one that you can consume and one free coffee that you must give to someone. And so now, all of a sudden, people started gifting coffees without having to pay for it, and they were experiencing this joy of giving, and it didn't feel awkward.

And then in terms of L for logistics is the question, like, how do we deliver the solution to customers? This is where you think about your pricing model, your sales and support model, how you teach customers, etc. And in this case, our pricing model that we developed was that we get a percentage of the brand's sponsorship fee.

So you see that we changed our entire approach, right? From in terms of strategy, based on what's the change we're trying to create, like our vision drove a strategy. And so next we thought about, okay, how do we translate this into a set of priorities? And this is where in terms of prioritization in the radical product thinking way.

You think about it as a yin and yang, the yin and yang of long term versus short term, right? And so if I translate what that intuition of long term decision making versus short term, how that translates for my team, I have to make it explicit on an x and y axis so I can make it very visual and people instantly understand it.

So think about your y axis as vision fit, is this good for your vision or not? And your x axis is, is this good for survival or not? And so in this case for Paul, for his startup, survival was about financial survival. Like, will I live another day? And so, things that are good for both vision as well as survival, well those are the easy decisions, right?

That's ideal. Then if you're doing things that are, you know, Good for the vision, but not good in the short term for survival because it doesn't bring in revenues that's investing in the vision. Like for example, in the realm of digital transformation, right? If you have to have meetings to get people to buy into digital transformation, if you have to, for example, work on some technical debt and work on all this refactoring that might be investing in the vision, the opposite of investing in the vision, right, is vision debt.

where you say, you know, I need to do this to meet next quarter's revenues, but this is not good for the vision. And very often, by the way, remember the disease I talked about called obsessive sales disorder, that happens when you take on so much vision debt, that you're drowning in vision debt, and that's all you're doing.

And so your entire roadmap is just driven by, let's say, custom features or whatever else to make that next quarter's revenue, but you're never investing in the vision, right? And so in terms of how We thought about this prioritization for the startup. We were balancing all this functionality on this prioritization.

So I'll give you one example. Getting brands to sponsor free coffee required us to build features for the brand so that they could, you know, create marketing campaigns, right? That's good for revenues, but it's not the long term vision of spreading kindness. So we took on a little bit of vision debt. So it's not like you can always avoid it altogether, but it was very mindful.

We had to survive. So we had to take that on. But then we did some things in the ideal quadrant, like the ability to build this feature of you know, giving people two coffees, each one for you to consume and the other to gift to someone. And now I'll talk about the last step, which is execution and measurement.

And this is where you can use Agile and you take this feedback driven approach where you think about your hypotheses and how do you translate functionality into, you know, what do you test and measure whether it's working. So in this case, right, The way Paul used to measure success was, you know, how many people are getting on his app and how, how much organic growth is he getting?

And yes, those measures are important. But one of the main metrics we then started looking at after all these changes is, what is the percentage of users who are using their own money to buy someone else a coffee? And all of a sudden, after all these changes we did, Initially, right, there was 0 percent when the original feature was getting people to buy the coffee.

When we launched this feature of training people to buy someone a coffee, 27 percent of people who learned to gift someone a free coffee were now buying someone a coffee. So this, this was a huge success in terms of our strategy and we knew kind of how to then optimize from there. So this is what I mean by implementing radical product thinking.

When you take this very. Thorough vision driven approach.

Tim Butara: That was a fantastic example. A lot of really great points here, basically about, you know, about how this whole decision went and what you need to include in the design itself. Are there any like really important lessons that you've learned from this, some, some tips, some key considerations that were maybe obvious, but you didn't even think of them and they ended up being a real game changer, something that you haven't shared yet, maybe.

Radhika Dutt: Yeah, I'll share something that very specifically applies to digital transformation, right? So I have worked with the Monetary Authority of Singapore for a few years now, since 2019, and I'm advisor on product thinking for the Monetary Authority of Singapore, which is Singapore's central bank and financial regulator.

MAS has been going through digital transformation for a few years, and, you know, I'll share a few tips and lessons that I've learned from that experience. One of the biggest things was You know, when you're engaging in digital transformation, you know, change is always hard for people. And when change is hard, you have to think about, you know, digital transformation, almost like building a product, because that change that you're creating, how do you bring that about?

It has to be vision driven. People have to buy into, you know, why am I doing this digital transformation? So unless they're bought into that, right? And if If you're asking me to change how I work, and I've been doing something the way I have been for 10 years, it's really hard for me to change that unless I bought into this vision.

And so this clarity of thinking in terms of whose problem are we solving? You know, what exactly is the problem? Why does it need to be solved? Because maybe it doesn't. So everything that I said about the vision and how we wrote a vision for NAC, it applies to digital transformation. So if you're a leader in digital transformation, you have to start with your vision.

That's really centered on what's the problem that digital transformation is solving for you and you know so what if we don't solve it like if you cannot answer that in in a level of detail that will really resonate with people it's hard to get by and so that's the first thing the second thing right is when you think about the rdcl strategy for digital transformation.

And you think about the different personas for, in terms of who has those real pain points at MAS, for example, you know, we thought about both the external users who would be, for example, the financial institutions that interact with MAS, but also the internal people, right? People who work on all this regulatory stuff.

How do you make their life easier? Because if you're only focusing on customer service. The internal people might still feel like that just makes my job so much harder. I'm sorry, but I'm not buying into this digital transformation. So when you think about your strategy, think about all the personas who are involved and how are you going to address those pains?

What's your strategy? D for design capabilities, logistics, et cetera, that you need to think about. Then you think about prioritization. Like how do you balance the long term and short term and, you know, in terms of execution and measurement, very often, like as part of digital transformation, I've noticed that people tend to jump into let's set OKRs for everyone, that's how we drive progress.

And then we'll measure everyone by these OKRs, but the reality is, right. Especially in larger organizations, OKRs alone don't cut it. Why? Because OKRs set metrics, but they don't necessarily help people course correct at a very granular way. So if you think about how we created metrics for NAC, this the startup that I just talked about, this coffee, Random Acts of Coffee startup, you know, we derived those hypotheses and metrics from the strategy.

So if you remember our strategy was centered on how do I make it easier for you to learn to gift a coffee and then we were measuring, okay, is our strategy working right? And so your execution and measurement has to be hypothesis driven as opposed to just OKRs that are top down. So how do you work at a grassroots level to get people into this mindset of taking The, the high level vision and, you know, crafting a vision for their detailed product, using that, then translating into a strategy, priorities and hypothesis driven execution and measurement.

Tim Butara: Yeah, a lot of additional great tips. Thank you for these. And the next thing that I really want to talk about, as I already mentioned in the intro to kind of to broaden the topic a little bit, that you also wrote about in your book, and that is digital pollution. So can you tell us a little bit more about what digital pollution is and how you should account for it when undergoing all this?

Radhika Dutt: Yeah, great question. So, digital pollution is the equivalent of environmental pollution. So, if we think about the industrial boom, you know, that has happened in the last, let's say, five decades, and how much just growth in industry, and us being reckless about it, Has led to pollution, right? If we take that parallel and look at digital growth, you know, the equivalent of that has been digital pollution.

So examples of the types of digital pollution include eroding our information ecosystem. So this is examples of, you know, misinformation, disinformation, et cetera. And AI is making that happen even faster then there is fueling increasing inequality. Let's look at examples like Uber, you know, where, you know, it makes it easier for companies to hire contractors as opposed to full time employees so that you don't have to pay benefits.

It's especially a problem in the U. S. where you don't have the social infrastructure that many countries in Europe have. But even in Europe, we're eroding those labor laws, right? And then you have, you know, the erosion of privacy. These are just a few examples, but, you know, there are more in, in the book.

Erosion of privacy, for example, when we have all this digital surveillance. I mean, privacy is so important for free speech, which is essential for democracy. So, All of our data collection, et cetera, when we do that recklessly, it is, it is very dangerous for our democracy to thrive, right? So these are just a few examples, but I have five such examples of what I mean by digital pollution.

And what I suggest in the book as a solution to digital pollution, is that we have to take responsibility for how we build products and build those more mindfully.

Tim Butara: Yeah, I mean, I mean, that's definitely one of the key things, right? I mean, with great power comes great responsibility. Technology gives us a lot of power, especially with AI, right?

One of the most important things during, at least it should be one of the most important things during most AI related conversations is responsible and ethical use of AI. But I think like, just for me personally, even before all of this, like I've noticed in the past year or so that. The more amazing tools there are, the more, the more possibilities there are to do stuff digitally.

the worst, everything seems to work somehow, you know, just, just a seemingly kind of kind of innocent aspect of digital pollution. But to me, this is like the first thing that I'll think about, you know, it's just, just, just so much of everything that like a specific example, you have this tool that you're using for X.

And now suddenly, The X feature isn't working properly, but the tool is like, hey, you should try our AI integration. I'm like, no, just let me do X the way that I've done it for the past N years, you know.

Radhika Dutt: I love what you've said. And in fact, you know, there's a term coined by Cory Doctorow. Who wrote an article on this.

He calls it enshitification. And shitification is actually a true phenomenon. And I keep observing this, right? The way he described n shitification is basically, you know, when we keep optimizing for revenues and he gives the example of social media, here's what happens, You keep making the product worse and worse for users to the point where it's affecting people's mental health, et cetera.

But people are still, you know, staying on it because the cost of moving social media or removing it altogether is pretty high because all your friends are on it. There comes a point where you Eventually it is so shitty of a product and it's causing so much pain to you that you finally say, okay, I'm done.

Right. And then when, just like there's a network effect where things sort of build up and there are more, and you know, once they're all your friends are on it, it's hard for you not to be on it. There's similarly a network effect on the decline, which means that, you know, as some of your friends leave, it becomes easier and easier for you to leave.

And so what happens is in terms of certification, this is an example of what meta has done. They've made the product shittier and shittier for users, but then they've also done the same for advertisers, right? Like there comes a point where even advertisers go like, okay, Okay. Okay. You know, I don't want to deal with this anymore.

And Twitter, for example, is a prime example of this, right? Where advertisers go like, okay, I'm done and users started to flee. But I think Twitter is an even better example than Meta, but Meta is doing this too. And so this is what n certification results in. So where does it all come about? It's that hyper focus on metrics.

On thinking about only popular metrics in terms of how you measure success when all the measurement of success is based on, you know, numbers like time spent on site, daily users, NPS scores or on revenues, right? That is N certification because even NPS scores, you can gain them to make them look good.

You give people some features that'll still make them feel like, yes, I will use this, but you're still optimizing for revenues, right? So my, my point is like, at some point, we really need to think about the product more holistically and more long term. Remember when I was talking about vision versus survival in terms of prioritization?

Enchantification results from taking on so much vision debt that's completely focused on short term. It's taking obsessive sales disorder of, of doing a lot of vision debt and drowning in obsessive sales disorder to the next level where your product gets so shitty because you've taken on so much vision debt.

And so to counter that, you have to be thoughtful about how often are you investing in the vision? Right? Like sometimes you have to actually invest in the vision and do things that aren't necessarily optimizing for revenue, but you're thinking about long term survival and therefore you build a better product that's going to keep people there longer.

Tim Butara: Yeah. I think that what you just highlighted is actually a problem with a lot of businesses lately and a lot, a lot of businesses or industries all together are now seeing the negative. impacts of it, basically, you know, being so focused on, on annual growth, do not even think about, you know, how your user base, how your customer base will be impacted by this in a few years time.

And maybe it's also, you know, Maybe it's also a little bit of a people issue. I think that I've talked about, I've talked about this with some people on the podcast that, you know, a lot of people view business development. I mean, their own professional development as a kind of, you know, getting all these credentials.

You're not trying to do well at a company. Because you want the company or the product to do well, but you want yourself to do well, you want yourself to have, you know, a higher pay, better promotions. And so this is why you only focus on the current revenue and kind of foregoing the vision because you probably won't be at the same company in a few years time when the fruits of all this will have mattered.

And so you don't need to think about it. You just need to think the immediate short term benefit, which is usually, and that usually sometimes coincides with benefit for you and benefit for the business. But, you know, without thinking long term, as you said.

Radhika Dutt: Oh, you know, I love that point. I think it's so, so true.

I think one of the key realizations, and this is what I meant by us building products more mindfully, We have to realize that we vote with our labor for the world that we want to create. And we have to be really mindful, like, how are you casting that vote, right? And so one, this is why I talk about the Hippocratic Oath of Product, where we really have to realize that our role in building products, it's kind of like that of a doctor.

Where, you know, a doctor looks at the problem a patient has and they say, okay, I see you have this problem. Here's what I'm going to prescribe for you. And, you know, they don't then say, Oh, you know, what happens to you after you use my product? Well, good luck. Good luck and God bless. You know, it's not my responsibility.

Whereas in, in products, right. We say. Well, this is, I see you have a problem, I'm recommending my product for you, but, you know, how you use my product, that's up to you, you know, I'm just a platform, you, good luck and God bless, like how you use it, right? This is what all these platforms say, but you can't do that.

We have to take responsibility for what we build, not just, you know, Oh, We can't just blame it on users in terms of how they're using it in the US. For example, the whole prescription of oxycodone and the addiction to opioids, right? It was very often blamed on the users. People were told, Oh, you know, you If you're the kind of person who gets addicted, then it's a problem.

Otherwise you'll be fine. Right? Like they were blaming it on users, which is not the case. They are addictive drugs. It was the lack of taking that Hippocratic oath. And so this is something we need to think about as product people. And as leaders in business, we have to think about. You know, how are we taking that responsibility in terms of how we build products?

And, you know, this doesn't mean that we have to be altruistic. In so many examples that I was giving, like even this example of this app that's trying to spread kindness, we figured out how to make it profitable, right? And so you can balance figuring out how to make things profitable, but without going to the end certification route.

Tim Butara: Wow. Okay. I loved the super smooth transition to, to the Hippocratic oath of product. And I mean, we could, we could open up a whole new conversation right now about, about the opioid epidemic and how In the context of the digital world, how that could coincide with something like the, you know, the rot that social media is causing, because as you said, right, I mean, you can't blame the user for using X in a fashion Y.

If you've yourself designed it to be used in the fashion, why, I mean, that's just absurd to me. But Radek, I would love to talk more, but unfortunately we need to start winding the conversation down. But I'm sure that our listeners would love to learn more about you, learn more from you. Probably also read the book, check out more examples, more insights from you, where can they do all that?

Radhika Dutt: So you can get the radical product thinking book in bookstores. It's on Amazon and other stores as well. You can also reach out to me to learn about corporate workshops that I do. And the work that I do also on digital transformation and it's both corporate workshops as well as I'm launching a new course that's going to be available.

On Pendo, it's on visioning. And then you can take other workshops through radical product thinking to get certification on radical product thinking. And lastly, you're welcome to also reach out to me on LinkedIn. Just find me on LinkedIn . And I always love to hear how people are using radical product thinking to create the change they envision.

Tim Butara: Awesome. I hope a lot of people listening right now will take you up on your offer, Radhika. This has been great, a fantastic conversation. Very happy that you were here with us.

Radhika Dutt: Thank you so much for having me. This was such a fun conversation.

Tim Butara: Right. Likewise. And to our listeners, that's all for this episode.

Have a great day, everyone. And stay safe.

Outro:
Thanks for tuning in. If you'd like to check out our other episodes, you can find all of them at agiledrop.com/podcast, as well as on all the most popular podcasting platforms, make sure to subscribe. So you don't miss any new episodes and don't forget to share the podcast with your friends and colleagues.