Robert Craven ADT podcast cover
Episode: 16

Robert Craven - Growing your digital agency in times of disruption

Posted on: 04 Mar 2021
Robert Craven ADT podcast cover

Robert Craven is one of the UK's top experts and speakers on growing digital agencies and the founder of the Grow Your Digital Agency Initiative.

Due to the nature of his work, Robert has seen first-hand how digital agencies have been affected by the Covid pandemic and he provides his deep and varied expertise in this episode. We cover the impact of the first wave of the pandemic and the key lessons learned there. We also take a look at how the accelerated digitalization which we've witnessed since early 2020 is opening up new opportunities for agencies, and if and when niching is still a viable strategy. We close with some practical tips for agencies to adapt to and succeed in the new digitalized business landscape.

 

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Transcript

“We need to be treating our customers like celebrities. We need to have operation love, we need to put together a campaign that says we're going to show our clients some just pure love; we're going to send them stuff, we're going to give them stuff, we're going to help them, we're going to go the extra mile.”

Intro:
Welcome to the Agile Digital Transformation podcast, where we explore different aspects of digital transformation and digital experience with your host Tim Butara, content and community manager at Agiledrop.

Tim Butara: Hello everyone, thank you for tuning in. I'm joined today by Robert Craven, one of the UK's top experts on helping digital agencies grow their business and also the founder of the Grow Your Digital Agency Initiative.

We have a very interesting and pertinent topic today, namely, how can digital agencies grow their digital transformation products and services during a disruption such as the Covid crisis?

Welcome Robert, it's really great to have you here. I'm sure you'll have some great insights and some very interesting experience to share with us today on this particular topic. And yeah basically throughout the entire 2020, we saw a massive rise of digitalization and digital transformation due to Covid-19.

Like, my first question for you, Robert, would be: how did you see the first wave in March impacted businesses, in particular digital agencies?

Robert Craven: Hello, and it's absolutely fantastic to be here with you, it's a real delight to spend this time with you kind of going through these questions, it’s great. So, March 2020, so I’m going to quote Warren Buffet to you: “only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked”. Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked. We didn't realize how good we had it in 2019.

In 2019 it was, oh it’s so difficult getting customers, oh it's so difficult getting stuff. We had no idea how, what tough really looked like. And I think when Covid came, we became aware of the agencies who had been swimming naked. The ones who didn't have deep pockets because they hadn't been profitable, the ones who didn't have decent funnels of potential customers because they hadn't been good at business development, and that became absolutely apparent only when Covid came in. And so we saw, we work with 250 roughly digital agencies here, as in work intimately with them. And we saw four different sections. We saw the top 15 percent, and they were what we describe as the ones who thrived. You know, March 19, March 20, never had it so good, because they were in gambling, because they were in green grocery, because they were in garden centers, boom, you know, they can't, clients can't get enough of them. Everyone can't get enough of them, everyone's trying to get up to speed. I reckon there's about 15 percent and I think there still are 15 who are doing phenomenally well. About 35 are what I describe as surviving. So we have 50 percent above the line who are okay, and then we have 50 beneath the line. The 50 beneath the line: 40 percent of those are struggling, 10 percent are dying.

Now, this is kind of self, this is what people say about themselves as to where they are. My suspicion is that there aren't as many agencies what I would call struggling as I think they are struggling in other words because of this gray hair, and because of all the recessions I’ve gone through. I think there's a lot of agencies who've never had it so tough, they've never, they've never gone through a recession. They don't know what it's like to have three years of hard work without much pay; they don't know what it's like to have clients with no money. But everyone's kind of going through it. And I think what happened, to answer the question, how was that first wave - really, really tough. People just didn't know what the heck was going on. We were running webinars every night 100, 200 people turning up every night for like three, four hours; and not only did people not know what was going on, but they, they weren't able or they failed, actually is a better word, to help their clients. The clients were looking to them, to help them, to help them navigate, and they were too self-centered, worrying about, how I am going to have people working from home? How are we going to sell if we can't go into their offices? I think too many agencies were too self-centered, and they didn't see that this was a golden opportunity to go out to their clients and say to their clients, you must be confused; let me help you navigate, let me help you understand what's going on. And then of course there's being in the right sector, or being in the wrong sector. So, I have some clients who are in the hotel industry - wrong sector, wedding industry - wrong sector, gambling - right sector.

Tim Butara: Okay. So maybe now let's focus a little bit more on the 15 percent that were kind of in the most successful group. So the ones that are that were basically thriving since March 2020; what were some of the quickest and some of the most effective reactions that you saw these kinds of companies make and what made their responses so effective?

Robert Craven: Good question. So I think the ones who are surviving, the ones who are thriving now are the ones who were thriving before. They are thriving because they have 50 or 100 staff, so they have a wide portfolio of clients, and they have a wide portfolio of clients from long-term to short-term assignments; because they're in that 50-100 staff area. Their clients tend to be larger with larger budgets, so it's like a budget for the year, and they tend to be dealing with a marketing director not an owner. And so the business has got more stability because of the size of the clients. However the ones who, who switched from being a nobody to actually starting to thrive I think which, I think is, is interesting and this is like the smaller independent agencies, they kind of stopped what I would call ostrich marketing. You know, the ostrich puts its head in the sand. They actually lifted their head up and they actually said, what on earth is it that clients want right now? And, and I-- yeah the, the problem for lots of agents is, you know, if an agency is a hammer they think all problems are a nail, so they just, they just tell everyone, this is what you need. And I think by ending ostrich marketing you go out, you engage, you find out what clients really want and you're willing to change and adjust, not only, the assignments you currently have but what, what you have.
So, what were the successful agencies doing? They stopped the ostrich marketing, they went out and found out what their clients wanted, they engaged. They became obsessed with cash - don't worry about profit. You know, like, right now, all we need to do is we need cash flow. You know, week by week, day by day, for some people month by month, because we've got staff, we're not-- depending on which country you're in, you may have no money for your staff. You may have to turn your staff off. And you need to get the cash in really, really quickly. And that's what they did. There's one agency I work with, they-- all their sales people, because sales had stopped, they just flipped their sales people to being cash collectors, phoning up. Obsessed with measurement, actually not just selling anything, but making sure what they were selling was, was profitable and starting to measure again week by week, not quarter by quarter. Figuring out who in the agency; because people had to lay off or make redundant or sac or if you're lucky in the UK you could furlough, where the government would pay; you had to figure out who in your team added great value to the clients, so that you had to keep them and protect them, and who were the, the dead wood that you, you could happily remove.

And I think, I think the difference between the agencies that were successful, and weren't successful is, some agencies just pretended it wasn't happening. And they were quite indecisive and they were quite slow. And they were waiting for Google or Facebook or YouTube to tell them what they should and shouldn't do; but the, but the grown-ups kind of realized that it was up to them to make the decision now. And, and you know there's, there's, it became really obvious very quickly that this wasn't going to go away. And therefore you couldn't just, like, do little cuts it wasn't, you had to be; it's like death by a thousand cuts, it's horrible. You sometimes, you have to just cut limbs off, and I think, and I think, I think there was that. And I think also rational decision making rather than emotional decision making. What facts can we find? Let's make a decision based on what we know rather than how we feel.

Tim Butara: So, and then kind of going from the first wave, to the second wave, like, there probably-- people had a kind of a little bit or a much easier time now in the second wave; because they already, you know, had some processes established in from March, from the first wave. So, do you think there were any key lessons learned during the first wave that kind of helped facilitate this whole process then in the second wave and kind of made it--

Robert Craven: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think so, so one of the big one for me was, is: compete on the value that you had. The trouble we have as agencies is that people can buy anything that anyone who's listening is doing. People can buy that from Bangalore for five dollars an hour, okay. So, you need to compete on the value that you add to the client, and you need to make that explicit to the client. You need to say to the client, in the last course you gave us ten thousand dollars, and for those ten thousand dollars you made ten thousand sales at ten dollars each. Which means you need to be really clear about the value that you're adding.  I think it's, it's, about going up the food chain and selling expertise rather than just what I call digit monkeys. You know so selling expertise and brain power, selling, selling strategy. That way you're talking to the marketing director rather than the marketing executive. So it's trying to get into the boardroom. I think there's recognition that cross-selling and up-selling is way more easier than business development. Business development especially in lockdown is really, really tough. Nobody has a budget, but cross-selling and upselling.

So back to if you were delivering value before you know, and if you were successful before cross-selling and upselling is way easier, you could have the conversation. I think one of the surprises has been that, despite what I’ve just said in terms of business development, the cost of customer acquisition has never been so cheap. So before Christmas, just gone; before Christmas 2019, sorry, you run an event you have 100 people at the event, you do a hundred personal invitations, you take five staff, you give everyone breakfast, you give them coffee, you give them lunch, you give them a glass of wine, you give them a goodie pack, you pay for the hotel and you get ten people say they're interested in talking further with you, and it may have cost you five thousand dollars. It may have cost you two thousand dollars for the hotel, and then a thousand dollars for the food, and then a thousand dollars in staff cost, and then another thousand dollars in goodie bags, and follow - it may cost you five thousand dollars to get ten possible leads. Now, you know, you just run a webinar on Zoom you get 100 people turn up, it costs you ten dollars you know, and okay so I’m exaggerating a little bit but, but the cost of customer acquisition can be cheaper now than it's ever been.

Next thing I think is that I think we've learnt, is it's all about, all about, all about engagement. Engaging with your staff and engaging with your customers, really connecting, really being pretty open and transparent, but doing them. And I think uh we have discovered, I hope, that digital marketing is the new rent, you know. When, when the old rent was on the high street, digital marketing is the rent that people pay. So more and more our clients are realizing that if they want to sell their product then they need to be on Amazon or they need to be on Google or they need to be advertising on Facebook or via YouTube. And so we're in this wonderful position of being the landlord and all, being access to the landlord, so that's really exciting.

Tim Butara: This was actually a really, really nice lead into my next question because the next thing that I wanted to mention is, obviously, since we're now all relying on the digital basically for everything, it's ubiquitous. It's, you're on it every day on different devices, different channels, but despite all of that, despite digital agencies having the obvious advantage of working in the digital industry, there were still probably a lot of challenges that some or a lot of them faced. Like, what were some of the main challenges for digital agencies in 2020 that you've seen?

Robert Craven: Yeah. So I think, I think I said what's happened in 2020 is we've had five years, four years of - I hate the word digital transformation, but five years of digital transformation that digital agencies have been wanting forever. And it's all suddenly, it's all come at once. And loads and loads of clients aren't up to speed; now I see that as an opportunity, because I think part of the problem is that too many agencies say, oh we're a digital agency, we do PPC. And the clients are saying, can you help us understand what our inventory is? Can you help us have a process whereby we get a lead from a website? And then, that goes to the warehouse and that goes to the, to the driver, and then that, and then we know when it's being delivered. And loads of agencies that certainly, the pure digital marketing agencies have said, no, we just do PPC, and I think that's, that's been a real opportunity to take part in digital transformation. So, the problem as you describe it, you know, are client uncertainty, and client default. You know, that's been a real, real issue that people have struggled to deal with. I think the other things would be internally - staff mental health and culture, getting up to speed with systems, understanding how to manage and I think for the agencies learning how to let go, learning how to allow people to work from home and so on, and so forth. So, loads of challenges for agencies. And I think also, one about values, that lots of agencies claimed that they were open, and we're a family, and we're friendly, and we love each other, and then when push has come to shove many of those agencies have not behaved consistently with their values. They've treated their staff really badly

Tim Butara: Yeah, I think I think this wasn't an particularly uncommon trend in 2020. Okay another related question to this, like I’m thinking now about agencies that were focusing on a particular niche that was really heavily impacted. Like, in this respect, would you still recommend that agencies put all of their eggs in one basket? And kind of, kind of go heavy in on one niche? Or are there new things that we should consider and take into account now?

Robert Craven: Yeah. So, I am a big fan of niching because I think you very rapidly know more than your clients do about your niche. So if you look at David Gilroy of Conscious Solutions, they only work with lawyers. You know, he knows more about what a law firm market is facing, he knows more about the cost of customer acquisition, he knows more about the lifetime value of a customer, he knows more about where lawyers look and read than, than his clients do. I’m a great fan of niching, and niching also means you can charge a premium price. It also means that your marketing and your cost of marketing gets much easier. However, we did have several clients in, in more than just vulnerable sectors, sectors which have died. You know, cocktail bars, wedding, weddings at hotels - I mean, double whammy, hotels. And those, they literally lost, you know, fifty percent of their clients on day one and then the remaining fifty percent on day two. So, I think there are two things that those agencies could do or did do.

Either you reimagine yourself, you know, you either close down as a hospitality agency and say, so what I do, which is, you know, PPC and content management, I can take that exactly that same skill set and I can just reinvent myself, except now we do it for grocery stores or garden centers or outdoor play areas or whatever it is. Or you say, okay, I’m staying in this niche because I believe in it, and I’m going to get as much support as I can by giving generously to this niche, and maybe changing my product offering. So therefore that means you start doing, as well as doing PPC if you're a PPC agency, you might start doing web design, you might start doing email campaigns, you might start doing graphic design, and you might start doing marketing stuff. And you know, the question always was, you know, how long is this thing going to last? Is it going to be a month? Is it going to be six months? Is it going to be a year? So we're back to, you know, how deep are your pockets, in other words, how long can you survive?  Which is a function of how profitable you were last year. And, secondly, how good and how deep is your funnel you know?  How, how good does your business development mean in terms of having clients around you? 

So let me try and answer the question head on: should you niche? I think, I think what we've learned is it's probably better to have three or four niches. So you have your main brand, and maybe what you do is you say: “and we have a unit which specializes in lawyers, a unit that specializes in hotels and a unit that specializes in healthcare”. I guess that's the, that's what wisdom has told us. But at the time, niching seemed to be a really splendid idea, so I still am a fan of focusing on core areas. But I think that as I, so I-- one of my niche clients, their niche was gambling, online gambling, and of course they've never had it busier. So there's a little bit of luck involved as is always the case.

Tim Butara: So yeah, it's like, it's like don't, like, denounce niching altogether; but just, like, don't immediately denounce other possibilities, like, like keep your options at least a little bit open and allow yourself to be at least a little bit flexible, so that you know you don't get, you don't go out of business with a major disruption if your area is the one that gets affected.

Robert Craven: I think it's really difficult you know; because there's not a one-size-fits-all answer. I think, I think, I think for my, to my mind the key thing is about; what do your customers want? What are they looking for?  What do they need? And each, each of us has a different, has a different black book with different people in the, in the black book and so some of us have a black book full of marketing directors. Sometimes it's marketing managers, sometimes it's over a number of different industries and, depending on which town you're in and what level of competition there is, will determine what's right.

I think the important thing is, is that the-- Covid has allowed us to kind of reinvent ourselves and recreate ourselves. And I think the ones who will survive are the ones who haven't doggedly said, we do SEO, we do SEO, we're an SEO agency, we're an SEO, agency we're an SEO agency, but actually the ones who've gone, wow, SEO and content management and PR are so close, and what people really want right now is PR, so we could recreate ourselves as that. And I think there's and, I think there's space for, in the same way, I think there's space for full service agencies versus pure performance agencies, and there's space for, we're a HubSpot specialist or a Google specialist, or an Amazon specialist. I think there's kind of space for all, but I think you kind of need to move around and kind of figure out where the open doors are, and figure out where they love you most and figure out where, where you're getting the most resistance.

I mean and, and we should all be doing this for all of our products; before this call, I was literally having a conversation with my marketing director saying, look, we've got these four basic products that we sell, you know, and one and two are fantastic and three and four are struggling a bit. So, let's just go through the options for product four, we could kill it, you know; - did you just say that? - yeah, we could kill it, then we'd only have three, wouldn't life be easier for everyone? Or we could, or we could pivot, we could change the market, change the price, change the product, change the offer, change the way we do it, yeah? Or we could persevere as it is now, so we could kill, yeah, stick or twist whatever it is. And I think what Covid’s done is it's hopefully forced agencies to, if they've got five offerings, that they reduce that to three or if they had three and there's something really sexy that they think they can do, that they can move off and do that. But not just to think it's going to be business as usual, because I just don't think that the way your agency ran in, in December 2019 and the way it's going to run in December 2021, it's not going to be the same. Clients want stuff in a different way than they did before and I think we just need to need to recognize that.

Tim Butara: Yeah, those are definitely some key points and some excellent advice. I hope our listeners will find it helpful and probably use it in some of their own practices and to streamline their processes, thanks Robert. 

Okay yeah, we're kind of-- nice, you're following my thoughts so perfectly because now, I just wanted to transition talking about kind of growth opportunities for agencies. And, you know, some of the industries that we saw massive growth in this year were, for example, you know video chat, video call, services for example Zoom which we're using right now and stuff like food delivery services; would you say that with the growth of these industries, that the growth in these industries also opens up more opportunities for growth in digital agencies?

Robert Craven: Yes! So those-- I mean it's a bit like wild west ,you know, I mean it's the-- so, you can imagine the guys at Zoom, you know, oh, we should grow faster, oh we could grow faster, we wish we could grow faster. March the 17th - what's happening? It's like, what's happening to our machines, everything's gone mad. So, so those people, you know, so firstly digital, what digital agencies - if it's about digital marketing, you need more marketing to look after your brand when you're in a growth spurt than when you're struggling to get clients. You know, the need to get the messaging and the voice correct, the need to be talking to the right people in the right manner is even more important when you're growing really, really quickly than when you're growing slowly.

Secondly, it is uncharted territory and therefore people needed to figure out-- I mean, if you just looked at how the large corporates were so bad at advertising, you know. You know, every single corporate, from car manufacturers to burger manufacturers, you know, we're in this together. No! We're not in this together, you're trying to sell me stuff. Don't, don't tell me, don't give me videos of children looking up at trees and birds flying, you’re not in this together, this is blatantly, you know, nasty American marketing. So, you need your agencies on side more so than ever.

And then I think secondly the digital transformation piece is the opportunity that I think many agencies have chosen to pretend isn't there. Now, I get why, I totally get why. The problem is, you know, that most digital agencies have one particular excellent skill set, things like driving a car. And then when you say to them, hey you can drive a car, why don't you drive a motorbike? Wouldn't that be fun, you know, because it's very much like a car, in other words it's digital stuff, but it goes faster, it's quicker, you have the wind in the hair, it makes you more sexy in front of other people? No, no, no, I’m, I’m happy driving a car. And I think that agencies have been being quite conservative in sticking to what they're doing; whereas their clients have just seen the word digital and they, they just think, well, surely you can help me, because if you can't help me, I’ll go and find someone else. So the more entrepreneurial agencies who have opened up their offerings to respond to what clients are asking for.

Now, for agencies, the opportunities I think which have been really interesting are, who'd have thought working from home works? You know, a year ago, I’ve got to have my staff here. I'll let some of them take Friday off, but I need to have-- who'd have thought you can pitch to your biggest client without attending? Without five of you getting in a car and driving for three hours and sitting in a burger bar for an hour while you wait and then going in and then waiting and just-- who would have thought you could do that live? That saved us so much time, that saved us so much travel. More importantly for agencies - who'd have thought that it no longer mattered where your agency was based? You know in the UK which is where I am, you know, an agency down in the southwest would always be saying, oh we're down in the southwest, we can't-- we can only employ people within 30 miles, everyone in London knows that we're not from London, so we can't charge... 

You know, now if you're an Exeter agency in the southwest, nobody cares whether you've got staff in Bolivia, or Kathmandu, or Exeter or London, you know. And, and likewise, clients are a lot more relaxed about where your agency comes from. So it's kind of new rules time, which I think is really exciting, and I think that that growth, that growth spurt has been emphasized by those agencies who are doing really well. And they're saying, hi, we're doing really well, this is really exciting, and those who are who are assuming that, because they're suffering themselves, their clients are suffering as well. So they go and visit clients going, how is it? Is it okay? It's tough, isn't it, losing staff and reducing salaries? And there's lots of clients out there who are doing really well - remember, a recession, you know, the standard definition of a recession is a 10 reduction in gross domestic product. 10 percent reduction in spend, that's all, I mean it's not-- I, I know it feels like the economy is crashing by a load more than 10 percent when you're looking at shops that are shut and so on and so forth. But across the economy, you know, in the UK and US, they thought in March that the economy might slow down by as much as, you know, horror, horror 11 percent. That's not a lot really and I, I totally get-- you know, if you're in hospital-- if you're in hotels, it's going to be 99 closure. But, yeah I think it's an interesting, it’s interesting to think about it.

Tim Butara: So yeah with all of this in mind we're, we're now moving to kind of the, the titular question of this episode so growing your digital agency during a disruption. So with all of this in mind with, all of what we've just discussed right now, how can digital agencies take advantage of this covet-driven digitalization to kind of grow their digital products to grow their digital services? What would be some main, main tactics and considerations

Robert Craven: So, firstly and foremostly, I think you need to take a warrior mentality. So I think too many agencies took a, like a price taker, oh this has happened to me, we need to respond, but not upset anyone; but I think, you know, a warrior has a clarity about mission and, and they are working-like and they get up and they do stuff and they've got, they've got a target, and a goal, and they don't waste time, and they don't waste energy, and they make stuff happen.

So I think you need to be a warrior mentality rather than just, just taking it and, and, and being like a punch bag, you know. Like, it's actually going in positive. I think that Covid-- lots of ours here-- Covid has given us the opportunity to redesign our agency, you know. Certainly the first month when there's nothing much going on because everyone-- all businesses stopped; you could redesign you, could refresh, you could reposition in the eyes of the customers. You could repurpose, you could redesign your agency. 

And what should you be creating? So here's the quote, the quote is - and this comes from Richard Koch: “Create an irresistible product that's a joy to use.” Create an irresistible product that's a joy to use. I think we've just become five, ten, twenty years of digital agencies getting up, selling digital marketing, selling web design. We've-- the product isn't irresistible. We need to make our product that we sell something that people go, oh gosh, I want some of that, that's gorgeous, that really is solving my problems. So it's back to, what does the customer want? It's back to understanding, let's do stuff that's profitable and let's cut the stuff that's not profitable. It's back to what is on-- it's like a two by two matrix, you know, what do we do that is profitable and not profitable, and what do we do that is getting bigger and louder for the customers, be it customer segments or products, and what's on the downs. Two by two matrix. And let's, let's spot the stuff that's profitable and the stuff that's on the up and do more of that, and the stuff that's not profitable and the stuff that's not on the up let's just drop it. 

And I think it's about-- so that's about the growth bit of it, and then I think there is a whole piece of defense about, about becoming impregnable, about creating a moat around you. So that's about speed, that's about one of the big things that clients are frustrated about, is, they want stuff now, especially from digital. So we don't-- we no longer need to say, we'll meet you in 10 days’ time and then we'll do an audit of your accounts and then we'll make recommendations, and then we'll have a meeting with you. You know, clients want you to start tomorrow, and, yes, you haven't got the audit in place and, yes, you haven't got to have everything in place, but it's-- the mindset needs to shift. So that's one, so I think it's about speed, I think and clients love speed. I think it's about creating flywheels - so, awesome work creates awesome testimonials creates awesome marketing material creates more clients.

You know, it's like it's like getting a positive cycle going in your agency. Your superpower, the superpower that agencies have which they have ignored is that the customer is king. The superpower they've ignored is customer service, you know. If, if you're-- if the next customer who was coming into your office, so to speak, was Robert De Niro, or whoever your hero is, Sylvester Stallone, whatever it is, the brothers from Oasis. Whoever your heroes are. You would make a real effort to make sure the place is tidy, have the right coffee, phone them to make sure they're coming, give them the car parking space, have the papers prepared for them, play the right music, have flowers on the table, all that kind of stuff. But we don't do that for our other customers, we don't treat them like celebrities; we need to be treating our customers like celebrities. We need to have operation love, we need to put together a campaign that says, we're going to show our clients some just pure love; we're going to send them stuff, we're going to give them stuff, we're going to help them, we're going to go the extra mile. 

And then I think there's a piece around making stuff frictionless. You know, how easy is it for someone to speak to you? How many-- I think it's pretty easy because it's, I’ve got a Calendly link and... Is that that easy for the client? Because they've got to go to your Calendly link, then they click and then maybe they're not-- maybe they don't have a Google calendar... We need to just think about, how can we make every, every step of the way as frictionless as possible? we need to make our offerings really simple and seductive.

Tim Butara: So, the key bits of advice here would be, be a warrior, be willing to reinvent yourself, act fast and.. sorry this last one escaped me, what was it again?

Robert Craven: Frictionless.

Tim Butara: Frictionless, yes, of course.

Robert Craven: Just like Teflon.

Tim Butara: Nice. Yes, some, some really, really key bits of advice here they're right in the end. I’m sure that this will be very helpful to our listeners, thank you so much, Robert. Before we finish, if people want to reach out to you or to learn more about you, where can they do that?

Robert Craven: Two places I can do that, so I run the GYDA initiative, so it's a bit of a mouthful, but G-Y-D-A for “grow your digital agency” gydainitiative.com. Easier - gydainitiative.com - easier is robert-craven.com. Robert-craven.com. But all the usual social media channels. But GYDA initiative will get us on Facebook Twitter.

Tim Butara: Cool. I’ll make sure to include that in the in the link section.

Robert Craven: Lovely!

Tim Butara: Well, thanks again so much Robert. It was a really, really, really great chat. I really enjoyed talking with you today. And to our listeners that's all for this episode. Have a great day everyone and stay safe!

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